Difficult (for me) 9-Ball Shot/Position

[instroke75]

Well, it's not a "drag" shot at all. And c'mon...with more than 4 diamonds of seperation between CB and OB and with the 8 ball frozen so you can't get ANY back on the CB before rail contact, getting passed the side pocket requires a SUPER draw stroke with a LOT of spin.

Mostly spin really because the tangent line is 2 diamonds below the opposite side so you need to overcome more than 2 diamonds to get above the side.

It's MAYBE a 70% shot (including reasonable shape on the 9) even for pros...most of whom would use follow....IMHO.

Regards,
Jim

EDIT: I assume we are talking about a 9 ft. table.

I only said draw/spin/drag because everyone looks at those differently, depending on what level player, where they live, and how they choose to say it! And I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill, if you think this is a 70% shot at best even for a pro!
Jeremy

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Jeremy and Dave, go ahead and set it up on a table and try it. Then let us know if you really don't see how a C player or even a B player could easily scratch in the side, or even the opposite side. Of course, it depends on your definition of a B player.

I don't think it has as much to do with stroke power as knowing where to hit the ball and having the accuracy to execute. JMHO.

You're correct. If you don't know what to do, the pocket is a black hole. That's why I felt I should post my opinion on how to play the shot.

A C player has one good option... Jude's safety play. That's the true solution. If you're playing to get out and you're a good shot, refer to my first post.

Just to add (edit): If the 8 is off the rail, I'm not sure if a pro would follow that shot like AV8 said. Drawing out of that 2 rails is far more reliable and accurate from that angle. If there wasn't such a big angle, I'd agree.

 

[Neil]

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[Bob Jewett]

... You can hit it as far out as you can and still not get much spin if you don't stroke it correctly. ...

I believe this is false. If anyone has a good repeatable way to demonstrate this to a skeptic, I would like to see it. The orthodox teaching is that the RPMs on the cue ball are determined almost solely by how far off-center and how hard you hit the ball. I have never seen any disproof of this idea.

 

[av84fun]

The stroke. You can hit it as far out as you can and still not get much spin if you don't stroke it correctly. Or you can hit it not as far out and still get a lot of spin. You have to stroke it good. No 'in-betweens' on this shot, or you sctatch.

By the way, it is sort of a drag draw shot. But you still have some draw at contact. You can't have no draw. But getting a lot or a little doesn't really matter here. As I stated previoulsy, and you noted, it is the spin that brings you back, not the draw. And the pros are probably in the 95% and up for pulling it off. I'm over 80%, so they have to be a ways higher.

On a familiar table, the 3 rail around could be the easiest. But again, the spin is critical on it. You also have to have the speed correct. Too much speed, you don't get around well because the cb won't 'hook' to the bottom rail soon enough. A lot of tables won't allow you to get the 3 railer on this particular shot. You will end up short on the 9.

Thanks...I see what you mean on the spin/english issue.

But I think your drag draw explanation isn't accurate. You correctly stated above that you can't have zero draw on the shot but by definition, a drag draw shot is one where draw is imparted but dissipates to become forward roll before OB impact.

So, if there is backspin at impact as is required with this shot, then it is not a drag draw IMHO.

Re: the odds on the shot...are you talking about a 9ft or 7 ft. table. On a 9 ft. pockecting the 8 AND getting reasonable shape on the 9...say a 60 degree cut or less from a 2 diamond distance doesn't seem like an 8 of out 10 shot to me.

I'd bet even money against any time on a 9 ft. Diamond Pro any time.

Rgards,
Jim

Regards,
Jim

 

[Neil]

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[Neil]

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[av84fun]

Notice I said 'sort of'. The point being you are not so concerned with trying to draw it back, but you do need a little draw on it.

Hey...it's either pregnant or not!! (-:

But what about the 7ft./9 ft. question??

Thanks,
Jim

 

[crappoolguy]

I had a shot similir to this today. I attempted to play with top left, and left myself a nastly cut on the nine which i made. I would always attack here, as if I didn't go far enough I'd still have the bank. BTW, the 8 WAS frozen to the rail which made the shot quite a bit easier.

 

[Neil]

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[Bob Jewett]

... We have people posting that just cannot get the cb past the side pocket. I'm pretty sure they are hitting pretty far out on the cb, and still can't do it. ...

And I'm pretty sure that if I chalk for them and they can hit the ball hard enough, I can eventually (within an hour or so) get them to do the shot. The problem for "C" players, if they can hit the ball hard enough, is usually that they don't hit far enough from center, no matter how far from center they initially line up. Really.

 

[av84fun]

7' easier. For the sole reason that you actually are closer to the ball, and the spin will be reduced less by the friction of the cloth.

OK...that's what I thought. So, with respect, I think you are off the mark by suggesting such a high (80%) success factor and then stating that pros ought to have a higher percentage.

And the CB/OB separation is not "the sole reason."

In fact, the distance from the 8 ball to past the centerline of the table (necessary to avoid scratching) is also much closer and therefore requires a lesser departure angle off the long rail.

It is a MUCH easier shot to pocket in the first place and can be shot much more softly (also increasing accuracy) because the CB roll distance to the shape zone is much shorter.

Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

I only said draw/spin/drag because everyone looks at those differently, depending on what level player, where they live, and how they choose to say it! And I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill, if you think this is a 70% shot at best even for a pro!
Jeremy

Well, I think that on a 9 ft. table, I am making a mole hill out of a mole hill.

Hit with sufficient force to carry the CB back to the position zone, the shot doesn't HAVE to go and given the squirt/swerve issue...especially with the draw option...and given the very small accuracy tolerances caused by the 8 ball being frozen...I stand by my position that making the shot AND getting less than a 60 degree cut on the 9 won't be made much more than 70% of the time by the pros and that, therefore, many of them would duck the shot in many instances.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Samiel]

I can't remember the last time I played on a 7' table... heh...

Assume a 9' table with 4 1/2" pockets.

 

[Neil]

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[Neil]

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[BRKNRUN]

Pot stirring time.....Throw out the scratch in the side for the draw back, throw out the scratch in (either) corner for the three rail.


Which shot has a bigger chance of "jarring" the OB? The draw or the three rail follow? ...

And...as the math teacher always said..."Don't forget to show your work"....

 

[BRKNRUN]

Bob, I agree, and disagree. Sure, you can teach them this shot inside of an hour. But I don't feel that it is a matter of how hard you hit it for the spin. Just the opposite on this shot. If you hit it hard, you will shorten up coming off the rail. And then you are very unlikely to get the position. For me, anyhow, it takes a soft to medium shot, with a lot of spin. I don't use my 'normal' stroke to shoot it.

I would tend to think it is not really how hard or soft you hit the shot, but how smooth the stroke is that is applied on the CB.

Seems like the jab (no matter if hit hard or soft) seems to produce unpredictable results.

A good smoooooth accelerating stroke (hard or medium) I would think may better describe what your getting at. It makes the CB drive through the OB grab the rail and take off around the table.

 

[PoolBum]

CueTable Help

This shot, and shots like it continue to be difficult for a C player such as myself.

FWIW, this shot continues to be difficult for A players as well, especially on tough equipment.

I wouldn't try either of the shots you mention on tough equipment. The safety that comes to mind is trying to cut the 8 slightly to the right (as long as it's not frozen) and three-rail it out of there to down near the 9, while trying to leave the cueball down near the other end rail.

 

[Cuebacca]

do I get brownie points, professor?

Pot stirring time.....Throw out the scratch in the side for the draw back, throw out the scratch in (either) corner for the three rail.


Which shot has a bigger chance of "jarring" the OB? The draw or the three rail follow? ...

And...as the math teacher always said..."Don't forget to show your work"....

I will stick my neck out and say that the low-right option has more chance of jarring the 8, because if the spin transfers, then the 8 will have left spin when it hits the far facing. This, IMO, is more critical on a severely tapered/pinched-angle pocket like on a stock Olhausen.

Oh yeah, this assumes that both balls are struck equally hard. Since I think I have to hit the ball a tad harder on the low-right shot, that would make it even more prone to rattling than going forward, IMHO.