Difficult (for me) 9-Ball Shot/Position

SpiderWebComm said:
Thank you. I recorded this when I came home from work at 5:15 and spent the balance of the time cutting the clip and uploading it youtube. I think if I practiced this shot, my % would be pretty high and like I said-- I'm no player.

Youtube was pretty easy - I'll try to do that more often. I'm not saying you didn't do what you said, but it'd be cool to have you post a video and everyone else who can do one so we can see the different, repeatable ways to make the shot well. I'm sure people have different styles - I'd like to see them. It's interesting.

Buy me a digital video camera and I'd be happy to!! Besides, I don't want the world to be able to recognize me on sight. This witness protection program thingie really puts a cramp in my style!

(-;

And you ain't no banger my man.

(-:

Buy hey...gimme some props for calling the percentage pretty closely on a shot I hand't even tried!

Even giving you credit for 2 questionalbe leaves, you shot it 77% when I said the percentage wouldn't be "much higher than 70%"

And you shot it consecutively which is a WHOLE different thing than seeing the shot once in...what...every 10-15 racks?

FYI, on your first six tries you got questionable leaves on shots 1 and 3 and missed shots 5 and 6 so without repetive tries, your success rate was way lower than taking all 13 tries together.

Giving you credit for 1 of the two questionalble leaves = 50% in 6 tries and few pros would risk selling out for a 50/50 shot.

I know you're not a pro....I'm just sayin'

Regards,
Jim
 
I think the condition of the cloth would be a major factor on how to play this shot. If its new cloth, then its easier to pocket the 8 and get position on the 9. On older more worn cloth, I think the safety Jude diagramed is the correct shot. JMO.

Southpaw
 
av84fun said:
Buy me a digital video camera and I'd be happy to!! Besides, I don't want the world to be able to recognize me on sight. This witness protection program thingie really puts a cramp in my style!

(-;

And you ain't no banger my man.

(-:

Buy hey...gimme some props for calling the percentage pretty closely on a shot I hand't even tried!

Even giving you credit for 2 questionalbe leaves, you shot it 77% when I said the percentage wouldn't be "much higher than 70%"

And you shot it consecutively which is a WHOLE different thing than seeing the shot once in...what...every 10-15 racks?

FYI, on your first six tries you got questionable leaves on shots 1 and 3 and missed shots 5 and 6 so without repetive tries, your success rate was way lower than taking all 13 tries together.

Giving you credit for 1 of the two questionalble leaves = 50% in 6 tries and few pros would risk selling out for a 50/50 shot.

I know you're not a pro....I'm just sayin'

Regards,
Jim

I give you props - you called it. The leave is almost a non-issue-- the 9 ball is frozen to the bottom rail. Truthfully, I'm making that 9 from anywhere on the table almost (not a good test). A better test would be to setup the 9 about an inch off the rail and then run out during each try.

I really didn't put much time into it - and it's a shot I never practice. I feel if it's a shot I have to make, I feel in my gut I should make it. If I hadn't just got home from work, and it was a Saturday so I could loosen up a bit and get into stroke, I think I should get out often enough to not duck. Let's say if I'm playing well and I get out 70% of the time from there...who would duck on 70% if you want to win? If I'm betting someone $100 / out and I get out 70% of the time, I'd never have to work another day in my life.

Maybe if I'm motivated this weekend I'll try again - complete with the runouts. It wouldn't surprise me to get a 10/10 with a runout on tape. So, at what point would you justify shooting the shot and not ducking? That's my only point. In a game situation, I feel MORE drive to get out than drinking my ice tea and worrying about my cats jumping up.

EDIT: No need for a digital cam. I used a $30 webcam and windows movie maker. Total investment: $30. Anyone on AZ can afford that.
 
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frozen: 3 cushions with high left. the problem with this is that you might even not get good position on the 9, even if you hit it good

not frozen: draw with low right
 
LILJOHN30 said:
Here's a example of a more advanced shot..Play the shot rail first with extreme low left.The cue will slide to the opposite rail and then shoot up to the head rail.This is a hard shot but one that I practice often to work on stroke,I usually put the shot on the left hand side of the table and shoot down from the head string.after about 5 tries I can pocket the ball and the cue just slowly slides to the rail and the accelerates up table.From the left side the shot is extreme ow right at about 5:30 and 2 tips.

That is the shot. It isn't as tough as it sounds.
 
What now?

I felt compelled to get at least 9/10 before I drove into work this morning and for some reason, I just felt like a monster. I got 11/11 playing low-right 2 rails---- and I made the 9 each time. On shot 11, I played low-inside to come across 1 rail and then shoot up-table for the 9--- just for good measure (LILJOHN shot). Now who's ducking?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I give you props - you called it. The leave is almost a non-issue-- the 9 ball is frozen to the bottom rail. Truthfully, I'm making that 9 from anywhere on the table almost (not a good test). A better test would be to setup the 9 about an inch off the rail and then run out during each try.

I really didn't put much time into it - and it's a shot I never practice. I feel if it's a shot I have to make, I feel in my gut I should make it. If I hadn't just got home from work, and it was a Saturday so I could loosen up a bit and get into stroke, I think I should get out often enough to not duck. Let's say if I'm playing well and I get out 70% of the time from there...who would duck on 70% if you want to win? If I'm betting someone $100 / out and I get out 70% of the time, I'd never have to work another day in my life.
Maybe if I'm motivated this weekend I'll try again - complete with the runouts. It wouldn't surprise me to get a 10/10 with a runout on tape. So, at what point would you justify shooting the shot and not ducking? That's my only point. In a game situation, I feel MORE drive to get out than drinking my ice tea and worrying about my cats jumping up.

EDIT: No need for a digital cam. I used a $30 webcam and windows movie maker. Total investment: $30. Anyone on AZ can afford that.


The shoot or duck issue is an interesting discussion. Your argument that
"If I'm betting someone $100 / out and I get out 70% of the time, I'd never have to work another day in my life"...is flawed.

In a match at hill/hill which was one of my examples, you don't have a SERIES of bets to win...you have ONE bet to win or lose.

The strategy in the situation at hand is...Can I play a shot, the result of which would upwardly adjust my chances of winning?

What the safety does is exchange a possible sell out to a position from which your opponent is faced with a FAR lower probability of making the 8 and a sell out if he doesn't.

Let me use different numbers to prove the point. If you have a 51% probability shot, then should you ALWAYS take it because, over time, you turn out to be a winner?

I don't think many would agree that you should.

SOMEWHERE between 50-99% there is a correct "shoot or duck" line to be drawn and there are a LOT of variables including the score of the match...the money on the line and the skill of the other player relative to the shot you would leave if you duck.

For example, if your opponent is a notoriously bad banker and you are an excellent banker then you should be more inclined to duck a low probability shot because you are going to leave a bank and if your opponent ducks, he's going to leave you a bank.

In another post, I see you went 10/10. EXCELLENT shooting. You say you are a "loser" and not a "player" but that isn't true. Are you fishing for compliments??? (-:

Not to take anything away from you...but look at the TREND of your success after practice. The more you practiced the shot, the better you got. No surprise there.

But trust me...in a real world situation...where you are faced with a shot that you have NOT practiced dozens of times in the hours prior to the time it comes up, your first 6 attempts would be more descriptive.

You missed twice out of 6 and got 2 questionable leaves.

Finally, as far as making the frozen 9 Ball from "practically anywhere on the table...slow down there big fella!

Sure we can all do the "rail first/spin it in" shot on that 9 ball from, say, a diamond to the left of the head spot but is that a high percentage shot for you too?

If so, you ain't no "loser" pardner...

(-:

Jim
 
This Just In

SpiderWebComm said:
I felt compelled to get at least 9/10 before I drove into work this morning and for some reason, I just felt like a monster. I got 11/11 playing low-right 2 rails---- and I made the 9 each time. On shot 11, I played low-inside to come across 1 rail and then shoot up-table for the 9--- just for good measure (LILJOHN shot). Now who's ducking?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU

OK, I asked a very highly ranked pro what to do given the layout and this is the response I got.

"I'd pocket the 8 in the lower right corner with inside english and let the cue ball run around all 4 rails for easy position on the 9. And so would anybody else... "

I agree.

Your and my conversation was limited to the choice between YOUR shot (low right engloish) and ducking.

BUT....everyone has different confidence levels re: particular shots and if the player FEELS the shot...then sure, take it.

Regards,
Jim
 
av84fun said:
OK, I asked a very highly ranked pro what to do given the layout and this is the response I got.

"I'd pocket the 8 in the lower right corner with inside english and let the cue ball run around all 4 rails for easy position on the 9. And so would anybody else... "

I agree.

Your and my conversation was limited to the choice between YOUR shot (low right engloish) and ducking.

BUT....everyone has different confidence levels re: particular shots and if the player FEELS the shot...then sure, take it.

Regards,
Jim

The answer I got from a few other pros was to play inside to come around 4 rails as well. Not one said they'd consider ducking. It's what you're comfy with I guess. I'm not looking for a pat on the back, nor am I fishing for compliments. Truthfully, I was a little embarrassed even posting that video on youtube because I knew there wasn't much to the shot. I even got a bad comment posted to it saying "NOT INTERESTING" which is what I thought at the very beginning.

I'm not a great player by ANY means. I'm just saying at a high level no one is ducking that. They're getting the cash. If I'm playing a champion, I'm shooting it because I'll likely lose a safety or bank battle and if I'm playing a loser, they prob won't get out either if I miss.

In regards to my few questionable leaves, if it means a lot to you I'll re-post the video over the weekend complete with runouts, higher %s and the great leaves. I did that video with no practice at all. Given, I took a few warm up shots before recording to loosen up - but that's it. I was just trying to prove the side pocket is the size of a BB if you shoot it properly - that was my main goal for the video.

Finally, I'm REAL comfy with a frozen ball at any part of the short rail. That doesn't make me "good" or a "player." Not sure what my %s would be for random shots at that 9-ball, but it would be way better than what you saw in that video.

Sorry for the Rick Roll - I was jacked up on coffee and looking for a cheap laugh :)

In conclusion, in my opinion, a pro would never duck the shot no matter what the situation or score was. They'd play to win that game from there (which I confirmed and I think you confirmed as well).
 
Fair enough. Excellent shooting.

Regards,
Jim


SpiderWebComm said:
The answer I got from a few other pros was to play inside to come around 4 rails as well. Not one said they'd consider ducking. It's what you're comfy with I guess. I'm not looking for a pat on the back, nor am I fishing for compliments. Truthfully, I was a little embarrassed even posting that video on youtube because I knew there wasn't much to the shot. I even got a bad comment posted to it saying "NOT INTERESTING" which is what I thought at the very beginning.

I'm not a great player by ANY means. I'm just saying at a high level no one is ducking that. They're getting the cash. If I'm playing a champion, I'm shooting it because I'll likely lose a safety or bank battle and if I'm playing a loser, they prob won't get out either if I miss.

In regards to my few questionable leaves, if it means a lot to you I'll re-post the video over the weekend complete with runouts, higher %s and the great leaves. I did that video with no practice at all. Given, I took a few warm up shots before recording to loosen up - but that's it. I was just trying to prove the side pocket is the size of a BB if you shoot it properly - that was my main goal for the video.

Finally, I'm REAL comfy with a frozen ball at any part of the short rail. That doesn't make me "good" or a "player." Not sure what my %s would be for random shots at that 9-ball, but it would be way better than what you saw in that video.

Sorry for the Rick Roll - I was jacked up on coffee and looking for a cheap laugh :)

In conclusion, in my opinion, a pro would never duck the shot no matter what the situation or score was. They'd play to win that game from there (which I confirmed and I think you confirmed as well).
 
I tried this at Danny K's on a cloth that is about a month old. Very difficult to draw back beyond the side, but not so difficult to use mostly left and a little high and come three rails, shooting it softer than normal.

You don't have to allow as much for squirt if you shoot it softer and go three rails instead of four.

On an older cloth it might be easier to get it past the side pocket with low right.

Definitely not a high percentage shot though, even for a pro unless he is in dead stroke.

Danny

Danny
 
I tried this a few times yesterday and not once was I in danger of of scratching in the side. The hardest part for me was making the 8-ball consistently. This was on a 9' table with 4.5" pockets.

I guess I imagined the shot incorrectly. Maybe if the cueball was moved up towards the middle of the table by a diamond or two.
 
SpiderWebComm said:

You sly dog you!!! (-:

You REALLY had me going with the relatively (compared to me) efforless why you were getting that shot back to the target zone.

Then, in a more recent post in another thread, you mentioned your table has 760 cloth which is FASTER than 860...especially my relatively new and relatively lightly worn 860.

The difference between your success rate and mine was almost entirely explained by my falling short of the position zone target which is likely explained by the slower 860!

But you will likely get a kick out of the fact that you had me pulling my hair out thinking..."I CAN'T suck THAT badly!!!"

LOL!

Still....NICE shooting on your part!

Jim
 
If the 8 ball is frozen to the rail it makes the shot a lot easier. You can hit the shot with bottom left at about 7:00. But make sure you hit the rail slightly before the 8 ball. The spin should bring it back to the 9. Personally, I haven't tried the shot from your cue ball position ("A" in the picture) but I've tried it from cue ball position "B" and I would say I have about 80% success with the shot if the 8 ball is frozen.

CueTable Help

 
Ok, here's my take on this. I've practiced this shot with high inside so much that I don't think it's all that difficult. Stroke it firm and smooth, not hard, let your stroke out a little longer and it should go around the table no problem whatsoever. If you practice this shot you'll be amazed at how soft you actually hit it to make it go around the table. The CB is going to pick speed up off the rails with all that spin on it so you really don't need to put that much ass into it. The lighter you can hit it the more you will increase your chances of making the ball. Someone on page one made one helluva point though. With this shot you really need to know if it's touching the rail or if it's not. It's a whole new ballgame if it's off the rail. Personally, when it's touching the rail I don't even think twice about having to shoot it......again, I've practiced this shot a billion and a half times though. I'll see if I can get a video of me shooting this so you can see how light of a touch it really is.
MULLY
 
mullyman said:
Ok, here's my take on this. I've practiced this shot with high inside so much that I don't think it's all that difficult. Stroke it firm and smooth, not hard, let your stroke out a little longer and it should go around the table no problem whatsoever. If you practice this shot you'll be amazed at how soft you actually hit it to make it go around the table. The CB is going to pick speed up off the rails with all that spin on it so you really don't need to put that much ass into it. The lighter you can hit it the more you will increase your chances of making the ball. Someone on page one made one helluva point though. With this shot you really need to know if it's touching the rail or if it's not. It's a whole new ballgame if it's off the rail. Personally, when it's touching the rail I don't even think twice about having to shoot it......again, I've practiced this shot a billion and a half times though. I'll see if I can get a video of me shooting this so you can see how light of a touch it really is.
MULLY

Mully-

Totally agree. I think if it's frozen, it's an easy inside shot. The Youtube video I posted is off the rail about 1/4".
 
Samiel said:
The 8-ball is frozen or nearly frozen. The 9-ball is nearly frozen.

This shot, and shots like it continue to be difficult for a C player such as myself.

I was curious what fellow posters would do. Do you shoot with follow or draw... or do something else?

With follow, I'm not sure I can get around the table or avoid scratching in the lower left pocket (of the diagram).

With draw, I'm not sure I can avoid scratching in lower side pocket (of the diagram) or get to a position where I have a good shot on the 9-ball.

Of course, the 3-railer with draw isn't practical for my C player skills. :p

Hi

I just saw this while archiving the layouts to the library..
http://library.cuetable.com/showthread.php?t=1721

What do you guys think of this?

CueTable Help



By the wei... Great video, Dave!
 
cuetable said:
Hi

I just saw this while archiving the layouts to the library..
http://library.cuetable.com/showthread.php?t=1721

What do you guys think of this?

CueTable Help



By the wei... Great video, Dave!

I think for a safety - it's a great move. Since I originally posted that youtube video, I think:

if the OB is frozen, the low-inside shot is excellent. If the OB is frozen and the CB is on the center diamond, the high-inside shot is the move. If the OB is off the rail, the shot I posted is the move.

I think it all depends on one's confidence. If I'm loose and playing well, I'd always try to get out - and I know I'm winning the game the majority of the time. If not, I'd duck. Even if you play within your ability to a safe, you risk someone getting out on you from any position.

Anyways, for conservative play - love your move.
 
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