Digicue Review - Cornerman

Good review Freddie. I was sent a Digicue also, and I agree with your assessment. I also agree with Bob that it would be nice if the Digicue could detect a non-straight stroke (with no side-to-side motion into the ball) and any deceleration into the ball. I think that would make the device much more useful, since what happens during the stroke into the CB is much more important than what happens after the CB is already gone. It would also be nice if it could detect a jerky transition between the final back stroke and the forward stroke.

I thought the Digicue was fun to play with; but after a while I couldn't help but focus on the limitations. Like you, I thought it gave misleading results with firm english shots (even with a good stroke). I also thought it had a little trouble with firm draw shots (also with a good stroke). It makes sense that the cue vibration and motion that can occur after a firm off-center hit can lead to bad readings. I also wondered if the upward motion of the butt (after the hit) due to a pure pendulum stroke could cause a false reading. If so, it would be nice if the device could use gravity info to detect the vertical direction and only look for side-to-side motion.

Regardless, it was fun to play with. I also enjoyed fiddling with my stroke and follow-through to see what things would and would not cause bad readings.

Regards,
Dave

Have you had any opportunity to compare it with the qmd? With all of the data it provides through its connectivity it would seem a natural for a guy with your numbers and objectivity outlook - one I share, BTW. I like the idea of seeing the numbers behind the beep to see what made it beep.

If not, I should have one in a few days and you are welcome to come down to the Greeley Senior Center and try it out so you can compare them. We'd love to have you come down and play some 3C with us anyway. PM me if interested.
 
Have you had any opportunity to compare it with the qmd?
I tried out a prototype version of the QMD and thought it was interesting. I have also seen results from other accelerometer and laser-based devices in the past.

With all of the data it provides through its connectivity it would seem a natural for a guy with your numbers and objectivity outlook - one I share, BTW. I like the idea of seeing the numbers behind the beep to see what made it beep.
I agree with you that it would be useful to know what actually causes the beep for different shots.

Personally (for myself and for students I've worked with), I think I can do a better job at diagnosing a stroke by watching it in person and/or in video (especially when slowed down). An observant person can see a lot more than a sensor only measuring one thing (acceleration), especially in the presence of the shock and vibration associated with a pool shot (especially with an off-center hit), and in the presence of all of the stroke variations people might have.

If not, I should have one in a few days and you are welcome to come down to the Greeley Senior Center and try it out so you can compare them. We'd love to have you come down and play some 3C with us anyway. PM me if interested.
I haven't really played 3C before (other than trying it out once on a 3C table), but I would still be interested in giving it a go. Maybe the next time Dave Gross visits you guys, I'll come along with him so I can meet you guys and learn something.

Catch you later,
Dave
 
Thanks for the review.

Sounds like several 1st gen things need to, or will, be worked out.
Personally I don't understand why the rubber sleeve on the device has to go
so far up the cue. Wouldn't it be enough to go up an inch or so?

No. A shorter mating length will cause the rubber bumper to fall off on diameter buts close to the inner diameter of the bumper. 1" mating length was tried originally.

Also, seems like having a way to insert the device into the sleeve from the
other end is a must. A rubber piece with threads, kinda like a cue bumper
might be a decent start.

Having the rubber housing maintain a closed profile at one end is important for tension. Otherwise insertion onto the butt/ extraction from the butt is too difficult.

One more thing; do you know if using this device means you have to drop
your shoulder in order to keep the cue perfectly level and not raise the butt end.
Or is it ok to only move the elbow (which raises the butt)?

You can use both a piston stroke and pendulum stroke, so long as your pendulum follow through is not very slow.
 
Good review Freddie. I was sent a Digicue also, and I agree with your assessment. I also agree with Bob that it would be nice if the Digicue could detect a non-straight stroke (with no side-to-side motion into the ball)...

The DigiCue does detect non-straight strokes in relation to the stroke line.

...and any deceleration into the ball. I think that would make the device much more useful, since what happens during the stroke into the CB is much more important than what happens after the CB is already gone.

Though most would assume this to be true theoretically, it is not true empirically. The data set measured before impact with the cue ball is of limited value compared to the data set measured after impact with the cue ball. Before impact, you might be able to measure axial acceleration/deceleration of the cue, but that's about it. If you are steering the cue or are stroking off-line, most of the deviation will appear after impact (especially radial deceleration of a moving butt, meaning you stroked offline). The reason is because the forward stroke is fast, and there is a delay in the muscular-arm-cue mass system that is on the order of the forward stroke time period. In other words, its easier to measure the resulting large side-to-side overshoot after impact than the tiny side-to-side initial movement before impact (think signal-to-noise ratio).

It would also be nice if it could detect a jerky transition between the final back stroke and the forward stroke.

It can, but I removed this functionality after the first round of public testing due to request. I found that there are a lot of players who do not like to deliberately pause before the final stroke. This feature can be up for discussion.

I thought the Digicue was fun to play with; but after a while I couldn't help but focus on the limitations. Like you, I thought it gave misleading results with firm english shots (even with a good stroke). I also thought it had a little trouble with firm draw shots (also with a good stroke). It makes sense that the cue vibration and motion that can occur after a firm off-center hit can lead to bad readings. I also wondered if the upward motion of the butt (after the hit) due to a pure pendulum stroke could cause a false reading. If so, it would be nice if the device could use gravity info to detect the vertical direction and only look for side-to-side motion.

Since you still have the DigiCue (I believe) would you mind filming yourself performing the same shots that gave you trouble above? I know that you stay down very well, so I'd like to study this.

Nate
 
Last edited:
...especially in the presence of the shock and vibration associated with a pool shot (especially with an off-center hit), and in the presence of all of the stroke variations people might have

Shock and vibration >5 Hz is filtered out digitally, and should not affect the DigiCue.
 
I also agree with Bob that it would be nice if the Digicue could detect a non-straight stroke (with no side-to-side motion into the ball) and any deceleration into the ball.
The DigiCue does detect non-straight strokes in relation to the stroke line.
It is my understanding that it detects this only after the hit. Bob and I were suggesting that it would be nice if it could also detect any off-line motion during the stroke into the ball (before the hit).

Before impact, you might be able to measure axial acceleration/deceleration of the cue
That is one of the things Bob and I were suggesting might be useful.

It would also be nice if it could detect a jerky transition between the final back stroke and the forward stroke.
It can, but I removed this functionality after the first round of public testing due to request. I found that there are a lot of players who do not like to deliberately pause before the final stroke. This feature can be up for discussion.
Even somebody with no "deliberate pause" can have a smooth and non-jerky transition. The problem is when somebody rushes and jerks the transition between the back and forward stroke. Detection of this could be a nice feature, especially if it were selectable and adjustable.


I thought it gave misleading results with firm english shots (even with a good stroke). I also thought it had a little trouble with firm draw shots (also with a good stroke). It makes sense that the cue vibration and motion that can occur after a firm off-center hit can lead to bad readings. I also wondered if the upward motion of the butt (after the hit) due to a pure pendulum stroke could cause a false reading. If so, it would be nice if the device could use gravity info to detect the vertical direction and only look for side-to-side motion.
Since you still have the DigiCue (I believe) would you mind filming yourself performing the same shots that gave you trouble above? I know that you stay down very well, so I'd like to study this.
I'll play around with this some more when I can find some time, but I wonder if the draw shot "false" reading was due to the tip hitting and sliding along the table during the follow through, due to slight cue elevation and the pendulum-stroke tip-drop after contact. FYI, with draw shots (especially firm draw shots), the cue actually leaves my open bridge during the follow through (after the tip hits the table). Again, if you could somehow separate the sideways motion of the cue from the vertical motion (due to pendulum-stroke effects), maybe by detecting the gravity direction before the hit, that would be helpful.


Very impressive work Nate. I know how difficult it can be to please everybody, but you guys have done a good job to offer a product of interest. And even for those who don't find it truly useful to their game, it is still fun to experiment with.

Good luck with sales,
Dave
 
Last edited:
This seems like a neat tool, but I'm really not into anything that makes my cue any longer than it already is. My table is a little crammed into the room at the long ends.

Is the board small enough to fit into a modified bumper that's already on a cue?
 
And while we're making pie in the sky requests for new features, how about integrate it with an Ipad for motion display, and add a couple of remote accelerometers (bluetooth) for the arm joints (wrist, elbow, shoulder) and maybe one for the head as well.

I've done the sports motion capture thing for cycling, where you're covered in 3D accelerometers on all of your joints, and I could easily see major benefits from that stuff applied to billiards.
 
This seems like a neat tool, but I'm really not into anything that makes my cue any longer than it already is. My table is a little crammed into the room at the long ends.

Is the board small enough to fit into a modified bumper that's already on a cue?

DigiCue will add exactly 1" to the end of your cue, and 0.1" in thickness to the butt. 1" is considered negligible in most circumstances.
 
And while we're making pie in the sky requests for new features, how about integrate it with an Ipad for motion display, and add a couple of remote accelerometers (bluetooth) for the arm joints (wrist, elbow, shoulder) and maybe one for the head as well.

I've done the sports motion capture thing for cycling, where you're covered in 3D accelerometers on all of your joints, and I could easily see major benefits from that stuff applied to billiards.

Good ideas, but we have to pay attention to the cost-of-goods vs. the development cost, and the market for new IP.

These things are really cool...https://yostlabs.com/product/3-space-usbrs232/

they're AHRS's for only $200. You could probably build your system for less than a grand, plus I think they have a bluetooth option. I've used them before and they're fairly accurate for motion capture.
 
Could someone answer my question please.
Thanks fellas.....


"One more thing; do you know if using this device means you have to drop
your shoulder in order to keep the cue perfectly level and not raise the butt end.
Or is it ok to only move the elbow (which raises the butt)?"
 
I disagree. I like having 2 competitors pushing each other to do better. I like having 2 products to choose from with different feature sets.

I hear you. But in this case, if we compare the stroke trainers for Golf, Tennis (Zepp, for example), to Digicue and QMD, the Zepp product(s) include something that is a combination of what is represented in both of these pool companies. So, that's one reason why I'd like to see a coordinated effort, but that's just a wish.

Freddie
 
Cornerman wrote a great review and I'll refer to it throughout my review/comments.

I purchased my Digicue(r) retail so my review is completely objective. It is also subjective in that my evaluation is based entirely on my opinion and not on any scientific testing.

Overall: I like the product and it has definite uses. Possibly more useful to the less experienced player than to a high level player. Tactile feedback after every shot goes a long way in reprogramming a brain.

Fit: Like Cornerman, I found the fit tight on some cues. On my shooting cue the sleeve had to be stretched a little. When it was time to remove it the vacuum created made it difficult to remove without damage. I solved the problem by adding a small hole for air to enter breaking the vacuum. How? It's not a good idea to just poke a hole in the rubber sleeve since that would make it prone to easy tearing. I used a small (1/8") brass tube, sharpened the end with sandpaper, and used it as a mini hole saw to cut out the relief hole. Worked fine, just put the sleeve over something (not your cue) to back the rubber while cutting it and take your time. I did the job by hand, not wanting to chance cutting something I couldn't replace easily using a power tool.

Inserting the device in the sleeve: After a bit of head scratching I grabbed a short length of scrap 3/4" dowel, attached some double-sided tape to one end, and used that to install the module. Worked great. When it was time to replace the battery I used the same idea to grab the module and remove it. Took a bit of rocking back and forth to get it out of the sleeve but it worked fine.

Sensitivity: Also, like Cornerman, I found it difficult to not get "buzzed" on draw shots. I have multiple shafts for my cue and decided to see if I could tell a difference just by changing shafts. Yep. Hit 50 balls with each shaft and tried to keep a constant stroke throughout the test.

Shaft 1: Maple shaft that came with the cue (Adams version of Helmstetter). Solid maple, normal taper, 13mm Kamui Super Soft tip. It was not difficult to hit draw shots and avoid the dreaded buzz with this shaft.
Shaft 2: Dominiak D3, laminated, normal taper, 12.75MM tip, Kamui Super Soft tip. Took a little more work to avoid the feedback buzz.
Shaft 3: Bob Danielson, SS2 with a special taper (no taper for the first 14 inches), 12.5 mm Kamui Super Soft tip. This one, probably due to more vibration, took more effort to keep the Digicue happy

Short version of my perception. The more flexible the shaft the more prone to getting feedback buzz. Hitting the table with the cue tip tends to make it likely you'll get buzzed. I tried to hit some draw shots without hitting the table with the cue tip. It does seem the Digicue complains less often. However, this isn't a "correction" I'd make in real life.

I took the Digicue to my favorite billiard supplier, Southern Billiards in Loganville, GA, and asked several folks to give it a try. All, like me, thought they had a smooth stroke and were surprised at how often Digicue said "not on the that shot, you didn't." And, like me, after 10 minutes or so of using the product were getting buzzed less often. Based on that alone, the thing works.

Final thoughts: It works. It may not be the cure for all stroke maladies but the instant feedback promotes rapid improvement. I think the less experienced a player is, the more quickly it will promote improvement in basic stroke skills. After all, no matter how much you know about how to make the shot, it ain't gonna go if you can't hit the target and avoid unwanted spin on the cue ball.

Cheers y'all,
Southern Fried
 
Review

Thanks. There is a lot of interest - I assume - with whether this will help players hone their skills. I appreciate the review.


Side note - I have a number of Hager Extensions that are pretty fast and simple to get off the end of a cue. (remember - Digicue - your heard it from me on AZB first - :grin-square:).
 
...On my shooting cue the sleeve had to be stretched a little. When it was time to remove it the vacuum created made it difficult to remove without damage.

I am glad you enjoy the DigiCue!

Your comment made me curious as to what it would take to cause damage/tearing to the rubber housing. Please watch the following video of a test I just performed:

https://youtu.be/PiU2uNvCk4I

Attempt to cause tearing of a production DigiCue silicone housing, durometer Shore 60A, using human force. No tearing occurred. A slight blemish remained from vice grip contact points due to metal abrasion. Tested housing remained permanently deformed 3% in circumference after stretching with vice grips, which apply tensile forces well beyond that seen during consumer use.
 
Glad to see the sleeve is resistant to tearing. I used the homemade hole saw as a precaution. A smooth hole is always less likely to tear than a sharp edge. Cheers y'all, Southern Fried
 
Glad to see the sleeve is resistant to tearing. I used the homemade hole saw as a precaution. A smooth hole is always less likely to tear than a sharp edge. Cheers y'all, Southern Fried

Yes! I did the same thing to make a "sound hole" in the bumper end when experimenting with making a beeping DigiCue version.
 
Yes! I did the same thing to make a "sound hole" in the bumper end when experimenting with making a beeping DigiCue version.

One more thing. I aligned the hole with depression the tab that aligns the Digicue so the activation button lines up correctly. Then I added a dab of white enamel on the tab on the module. That way I can see from the outside when the module is lined up correctly. Makes it easy to insert. I also put a small piece of painter's tape on the battery side with enough extra to extend up one side and give me something to grab with a pair of needle nose pliers when I want to remove it. Just fold the extra over on itself so it doesn't stick to the sleeve or Digicue module. Works great.

Cheers y'all, Southern Fried
 
Back
Top