Digital Camcorder/Video Editing Software (Pool related)

[cleary]

Cleary, I don't want to turn this into a debate, please look into your information regarding mpeg4 HD. Here is a good source of information.

You're right, it shouldn't turn into a debate, mostly because it has nothing to do with pool. But I must say, I believe most of your information is incorrect. Obviously, mpeg4 isnt "ideal" in the professional world of editing, but throwing on the timeline, making a couple cuts and posting on youtube IS ideal for the average joe showing off his pool skills. After years of dealing with miniDV, Im very glad to only have two cameras in my life, the HF10 and HVX200... neither of which require a tape.

 

[sde]

Slightly off topic

Which format would be recommended for doing live streaming? And in particular which brands/models?

Thanks in advance.

Steve

 

[cleary]

Ive only done streaming through webcams. Justin with TAR may have a good solution.

 

[DoomCue]

Cleary, I don't want to turn this into a debate, please look into your information regarding mpeg4 HD. Here is a good source of information.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/f1

The smaller file size of mpeg4 is EXACTLY the reason it takes more PC power to edit than dv-avi. Your memory card format is even more difficult to deal with than HDV video.

There is NO DIGITAL VIDEO in the world that is edited while in its compressed state.

ALL digital video, regardless of its format, has to be decoded, (expanded) edited, and re- encoded after editing. This is the job of the NLE (non linear editing) software.

The more the compression (smaller file) the more demanding the decoding and encoding process is for a computer. This isn't an opinion its simply a fact.

You may be thinking about being easier on a computer storage wise. That has nothing to do with processor power, that is merely hard drive size.

Yeah,AVCHD takes up less room on a computer to store, but it more than makes up for its storage size when your video editing software has to produce tons of huge temporary expansion files on that hard drive to deal with the decoding and encoding while you are editing.

You can't put AVCHD video on a standard DVD and expect to view it in high definition on most set to DVD players. Most DVD players require mpeg2 standard definition video. Only very few accept DivX.

The AVCHD video has to be down converted and transcoded first by the computer software to ntsc 720x480 mpeg2 for most DVD players.

Of all the current digital video formats it is common knowledge that AVCHD is the trickiest to work with.

As far as the under 200 buck is concerned. Shoot, just go to ebay and type in miniDV and you will find any number of fine camcorder such as the Panasonic pv-gs series of camcorder which is a great choice for these type uses ranging in price from 75 dollars and up.

Anyway, I hope everyone has good luck in their endeavors.

Couple of things here, since I use an HD camera (Canon HG10) which records in the AVCHD format.

As long as you have the right software (and I use the software you recommended against, which is Pinnacle Studio 12), AVCHD is no more difficult to work with than any other format. Pinnacle actually makes it quite easy to do simple cut-and-paste. Ease-of-use has more to do with the software than with the actual format. AVCHD is relatively new, yes, and that limits the software packages available to work with it, but to say that it's tricky or difficult is misleading - that depends on the software. As far as "huge temporary expansion files" go, I have no idea what you're talking about. I've never seen any "huge temporary expansion files" with my setup, and I monitor my HDD space closely since I also use that computer as my home studio for recording music (as an aside, I haven't quite figured out why some of my music files end up being bigger than some of my video files).

You can put AVCHD files on a regular single-layer or dual-layer DVD and a PS3 will play them just fine (yet another reason I highly recommend the PS3 over the XBox). I usually just leave the images on my HDD - my computer monitor is a 42" 1080p Sony Bravia, so I usually just watch my movies on that. If I want to give one of my movies to someone, then I'll burn a standard-def DVD copy for them. Anyway, I do this all on a pretty average Dell XPS - no hot rod necessary. For the camera, software, and accessories, I spent less than $1000. That's not $200, to be sure, but you gotta pay to play....

-djb

 

[3andstop]

Guys listen, I'm attempting to offer information on the easiest, least expensive way to accomplish what the original poster inquired about because I have some depth of knowledge in this field as I've been doing it for about 7yrs since I retired.

Unfortunately providing a high definition camera link, and saying you enjoy using it could very likely cost someone a ton of money and aggravation if their particular intended use is not the same as yours.

I said this right up front. Standard definition video and high definition video are two ENTIRELY different things.

Depending on your desired output and final presentation media (such as internet or DVD) there are logical, rational decisions to make.

Who wants to buy a PS3 just to use DVDs to view your video on TV unless your final presentation is intended to be viewed in HIGH DEFINITION exclusively.

Geez, I'm trying to explain the simplest, cheapest, highest quality video editing solution for the original question asked and it AIN"T HIGH DEF VIDEO.

Somehow we got sidetracked into High Definition AVCHD which I'm sorry to say is even more difficult to edit than HDV which uses an mpeg-2 type format rather that the more involved mpeg-4

"Throwing it on the timeline and making cuts is not exactly video editing, and I also said up front that an mpeg formatted video that will only be cut and spliced can be done so without issue.

(Without issue that is unless you want frame accuate edits)

Back to square one, if you desire your intended video shoots of your pool to be presented in standard definition, on DVD, for TVs then FORGET HIGH DEFINITION FORMATS.

If you can get that far in the decision making process, then the next thing is to determine if you want to handcuff yourself into limited mpeg editing or not. If not, once again the answer is STILL MiniDV.

I'm sorry if you don't like the facts, but they are just that. I provided links to some video resource information. If you take any more than a cursory look through those links you will learn more of what I am talking about.

dv-avi video can be edited without ANY issues on a Pentium III computer with less than one gig of memory. You go try and do that with High Def video. You will need a Pent. IV with at least a 3ghz processor and at least 1 gig of memory with 2 gigs being more reasonable.

Now, once again, besides the processor speed needed (for anything beyond a simple cut and splice) (lets forget that for a minute) Remember this, decoding / encoding to different compression codecs has two more downsides. 1. It opens doors to incompatabiliy. 2. Transcoding to differnet formats reduces quality of video on the final output.

As far as large temporary files are concerned. My statement was made in the context of replying to the statement that AVCHD video is less demanding on a PC than dv-avi because it is smaller in size.

That statement was totally confusing and incorrect. I could only assume and interpret it as meaning AVCHD video took up less storage space on a hard drive because of its HIGHLY COMPRESSED FORMAT.

Once you start working on editing video files, (any format) they must be decompressed to work with. Guess what, now your hard drive has to accommodate the file expansion so the point is MOOT. Once you save your work the temporary files are deleted by the editing softare and you never see them. THAT DOESN"T MEAN YOU DON"T STILL NEED THE EXTRA HARD DRIVE SPACE FOR EDITING THOSE FILES BECAUSE YOU DO.

MiniDV remains the most versatile inexpensive, easiest editing format to work with. Mpeg hard drive and miniDVD camcorders will do just fine for simple edits and transposition to DVD-R media.

For slightly less money than the mpeg standard def camcorders the miniDV allows flexability for the possibility of some REALLY NEAT in depth video special effects, transitions and masking, overlays, and on and on.

It's been my experience that had folks known of the limitations of mpeg editing they would have given a much closer look and miniDV.

Read the links, do some research and don't listen to the Circuit City salesmen without questioning some of the crap they spew.


Doomcue

(as an aside, I haven't quite figured out why some of my music files end up being bigger than some of my video files).

The cousin to the highly compressed mpeg-2 video codec is the audio mp3 codec. If you are saving some of your audio to the WAV format, that is a COMPLETELY uncompressed raw audio format and would account for the VERY large files sizes.

 

[cleary]

Throwing it on the timeline and making cuts is not exactly video editing

Actually, it is. Editing, or as we sometimes call it in the industry, "cutting", is exactly that. Placing things on a timeline, cutting it up and telling a story. Sure, you can throw a cross resolve in once in a while(which should be used sparingly), but for the most part, your just cutting it up. (and in this guys case, it should be nothing more than trimming the head and tail of a run-out.... which any NLE can do)

Im not trying to make you mad, and Im not "listening to the Circuit City salesman". I have been doing this for a long time as well.... on a very high level. Once a full time editor, I now am a full time motion graphics designer/animator. Working with editors and sometimes, doing the cut myself.

Yes, I understand SD and HD are different animals, but not so much on the consumer level. An HD picture looks SOOO much better.... even when it is scaled down SD. On a pool table, that means the different between seeing an orange sphere and seeing a 5 ball.

As far as..... "There is NO DIGITAL VIDEO in the world that is edited while in its compressed state." You couldnt be more wrong. When I bring my MPEG4 video into Final Cut, I have options of which compression/codec I want to use. I use "Apple ProRes422 or Intermediate Codec" Both of which are lossless compressions which work wonderfully while cutting Final Cut Pro, Express or iMovie.

 

[3andstop]

If you make a change to a portion of video, it must be decoded, and re-encoded by the sofware program. The intermediate codec may be lossless but the original is not.

Beyond that ... I surrender, I'm beginning to bleed under my fingernails.

 

[DoomCue]

Guys listen, I'm attempting to offer information on the easiest, least expensive way to accomplish what the original poster inquired about because I have some depth of knowledge in this field as I've been doing it for about 7yrs since I retired.

This is a public forum. Can anyone else try to help the OP or give him any other possible options besides your opinion?

Unfortunately providing a high definition camera link, and saying you enjoy using it could very likely cost someone a ton of money and aggravation if their particular intended use is not the same as yours.

What happened to giving someone multiple answers so they could make up their own mind? Would you rather have too much information or not enough when it comes to making a decision?

Depending on your desired output and final presentation media (such as internet or DVD) there are logical, rational decisions to make.

And opinions. Do you know what the OP's desired output and final presentation media are?

Who wants to buy a PS3 just to use DVDs to view your video on TV unless your final presentation is intended to be viewed in HIGH DEFINITION exclusively.

Methinks you simply have something against AVCHD. The PS3 plays AVCHD, Blu-ray, and standard-def (which it upscales quite nicely, btw). Nobody recommended going out to buy a PS3 - believe it or not, some people already have them. Sheesh.

Geez, I'm trying to explain the simplest, cheapest, highest quality video editing solution for the original question asked and it AIN"T HIGH DEF VIDEO.

That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it. I don't think anyone else is prohibited from posting theirs, too.

Somehow we got sidetracked into High Definition AVCHD which I'm sorry to say is even more difficult to edit than HDV which uses an mpeg-2 type format rather that the more involved mpeg-4

"Throwing it on the timeline and making cuts is not exactly video editing, and I also said up front that an mpeg formatted video that will only be cut and spliced can be done so without issue.

(Without issue that is unless you want frame accuate edits)

The OP said he wants to do something simple. In my opinion (see, I can admit I have an opinion and what I'm saying is not necessarily a fact), putting clips on a timeline is pretty simple. Did you actually read his post? He said, "some basic editing with perhaps a few subtitles." As far as that is concerned, AVCHD is no easier or harder to work with than any other format. Have you ever actually even worked with AVCHD?

Back to square one, if you desire your intended video shoots of your pool to be presented in standard definition, on DVD, for TVs then FORGET HIGH DEFINITION FORMATS.

If you can get that far in the decision making process, then the next thing is to determine if you want to handcuff yourself into limited mpeg editing or not. If not, once again the answer is STILL MiniDV.

I'm sorry if you don't like the facts, but they are just that. I provided links to some video resource information. If you take any more than a cursory look through those links you will learn more of what I am talking about.

These are not facts, these are OPINIONS.

dv-avi video can be edited without ANY issues on a Pentium III computer with less than one gig of memory. You go try and do that with High Def video. You will need a Pent. IV with at least a 3ghz processor and at least 1 gig of memory with 2 gigs being more reasonable.

That totally depends on the software being used, the data being worked with, and desired time to finish. Again, just like a PS3, some people already have computers which meet any of your posted requirements. Do you know what the OP has? I think you're basing your recommendation on your own experiences and what you own, which is fine, but I think you need to keep in mind that the OP has ONE post in this thread. You can't know everything about what he has or wants based on that single post.

Once you start working on editing video files, (any format) they must be decompressed to work with. Guess what, now your hard drive has to accommodate the file expansion so the point is MOOT. Once you save your work the temporary files are deleted by the editing softare and you never see them. THAT DOESN"T MEAN YOU DON"T STILL NEED THE EXTRA HARD DRIVE SPACE FOR EDITING THOSE FILES BECAUSE YOU DO.

So why pick on AVCHD? This applies to all formats, so why are you singling out AVCHD? Perhaps to make your argument for MiniDV stronger? Or because you've never worked with it?

MiniDV remains the most versatile inexpensive, easiest editing format to work with. Mpeg hard drive and miniDVD camcorders will do just fine for simple edits and transposition to DVD-R media.

Inexpensive is a subjective term. What I spent I consider to be inexpensive, some people don't. Apparently, your definition is $200. However, the OP NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT $200! I don't know where that number came from, but it's an assumption, plain and simple. The OP never said anything about inexpensive, cheap, free, or anything like that. He just said he's not looking for anything fancy. You've made a lot of assumptions and leaps from the OP's original request for help choosing a setup.

Read the links, do some research and don't listen to the AZBilliards forum members without questioning some of the crap they spew.

Fixed your statement.


Honestly, I'm picking apart your post for a few different reasons.
1) You've made some assumptions about what the OP wants and he hasn't responded with what he really wants.
2) You seem to think your opinion is the end-all be-all on the subject of camcorders.
3) You're panties are getting bunched up and I just want to see if you're going to explode.

-djb

 

[Matt_24]

Wow - thanks everyone for some great information!!! Guess I'll need to update from my 16mm now, huh?

 

[3andstop]

Doomcue, I stand corrected. Matt, you should best take your info all from a guy who can't even figure out why his audio files are bigger than his video files.

Is there a machine you need other than your computer to transfer these videos to a DVD?

Oh, I think he made his desired output format quite clear in the original post.