Discussion: Focusing on the cue ball compared to other sports

Frosty said:
Fools errand. I mean, do what you want, but numerous studies into the “quiet eye” indicate you should be focusing on your target. If you’re shooting a pistol or rifle at a target, are you looking at the weapon or your target? Think ab
Frosty said:
Fools errand. I mean, do what you want, but numerous studies into the “quiet eye” indicate you should be focusing on your target. If you’re shooting a pistol or rifle at a target, are you looking at the weapon or your target? Think about it.
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My first sentence says it all.
 
gregcantrall said:
My weapon is the cue, the target is the cueball.
Sighting down the cue is basic.
Striking the cueball accurately is also basic.
Some can strike accurately without looking. It's easier to learn when I watch what's happening at impact.
Practice with a phenolic tip and no chalk. Works for me.
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I wonder how much the choice is ingrained habit or need?? Good players might well be able to look at either and be fine. Depending on which you were taught first or learned to do, may have stuck with you throughout. Whether needed or not.
 
gregcantrall said:
My weapon is the cue, the target is the cueball.
Sighting down the cue is basic.
Striking the cueball accurately is also basic.
Some can strike accurately without looking. It's easier to learn when I watch what's happening at impact.
Practice with a phenolic tip and no chalk. Works for me.
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Do this on a snooker table with a regular set of balls. You'll dial in real quick and realize all that extra stuff you've been doing with your arm is worthless.
 
straightline said:
Gun not same as pool stick. Pool involves an articulated 3 segment shot system. Stick to ball, ball to ball, ball to wherever the actual target is. These segments are seldom in a straight line.
A gun is a self contained shooting system intended to damage a target, It must be pointed <at> the target.
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I just tossed that out there to get interest.
 
straightline said:
Gun not same as pool stick. Pool involves an articulated 3 segment shot system. Stick to ball, ball to ball, ball to wherever the actual target is. These segments are seldom in a straight line.
A gun is a self contained shooting system intended to damage a target, It must be pointed <at> the target.
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I think you make it into more than it is. It’s clear from your numerous posts and in your signature line that you are fully committed to looking at the cue ball last like other misguided players.

You also LOVE to point to Jason Shaw as he is one of the very few of a professional level that subscribe to this viewpoint. As others have posted in this thread, it’s clear the majority of elite players DON’T do this. Your rejoinder to that was the elite skilled will be elite irrelevant of this, then wouldn’t that apply to your constant example of Shaw?

Tor Lowry, a friend, and one of the most respected and in demand instructors in this sport as he’s constantly booked, believes and disseminates that actual cue placement on the cue ball should fall into the territory of the subconscious, things that you don’t think about once you reach a certain level of proficiency. As I also previously mentioned, numerous studies on “quiet eye” also indicate the greatest success is achieved by focusing on your target. But don’t let experts opinions dissuade you from your tenaciously held position, even if it’s wrong. Carry on
 
Frosty said:
I think you make it into more than it is. It’s clear from your numerous posts and in your signature line that you are fully committed to looking at the cue ball last like other misguided players.

You also LOVE to point to Jason Shaw as he is one of the very few of a professional level that subscribe to this viewpoint. As others have posted in this thread, it’s clear the majority of elite players DON’T do this. Your rejoinder to that was the elite skilled will be elite irrelevant of this, then wouldn’t that apply to your constant example of Shaw?

Tor Lowry, a friend, and one of the most respected and in demand instructors in this sport as he’s constantly booked, believes and disseminates that actual cue placement on the cue ball should fall into the territory of the subconscious, things that you don’t think about once you reach a certain level of proficiency. As I also previously mentioned, numerous studies on “quiet eye” also indicate the greatest success is achieved by focusing on your target. But don’t let experts opinions dissuade you from your tenaciously held position, even if it’s wrong. Carry on
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Love? I mentioned Shaw a couple times.
Lowry knows what he's talking about. Likeable delivery, doesn't always hit the mark.
Me misguided? The world of jocks is the land of the misguided. You simply like to inflate your position. BFD

One question, your wife is Chicago Player? I just have this vague recollection that they look. similar.

Got any actual argument?
 
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straightline said:
Love? I mentioned Shaw a couple times.
Lowry knows what he's talking about. Likeable delivery, doesn't always hit the mark.
Me misguided? The world of jocks is the land of the misguided. You simply like to inflate your position. BFD

One question, your wife is Chicago Player? I just have this vague recollection that they look. similar.

Got any actual argument?
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I don’t have a wife. I have no argument. Lowry doesn’t always hit the mark, he could barbecue you. As I said in my initial post, do what you like, even if it’s wrong. Have a great day 😁
 
Frosty said:
I don’t have a wife. I have no argument. Lowry doesn’t always hit the mark, he could barbecue you. As I said in my initial post, do what you like, even if it’s wrong. Have a great day 😁
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Lowry functionally does pool for a living. I only know his youtubes and the explanations are sometimes redundant and aren't always relevant. I don't consider barbecuing anyone much of an accomplishment. Regardless, didn't someone post a picture of supposedly you and missus Frosty? Anyway, Chicago Player posted a selfie I think, that could be the same girl.

Anyway #2, when was the last time you didn't play perfect?
 
i hope this is helpfull to someone....;)😂
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Jesse Cool said:
I want to talk about cue ball last before stroke compared to other sports that involve striking a ball. Please read on…

I recently made a change to my game that has made a considerable impact to the consistency of my game. I switched from object ball last to focusing solely on the cue ball when striking the ball. I do change to object ball last on certain shots such as when the balls are close together but for the majority it’s cue ball last on 90% of my shots now. The accuracy and consistency of my game has gone up tremendously. This has led me to really start thinking about how others sports focus on the ball they are striking.

I grew up playing baseball and golf from a young age. Obviously these sports involve striking a ball with some type of club. These sports and many others that involve striking a ball, require sole focus on the object you’re hitting. The only difference in these sports compared to pool is, pool requires striking a ball into another ball. When I really think about it, there many things you need to do before the shot if you’re going to take the cue ball last route. One of the most important is to pick your line from standing position and get down into that same line. Although, this is still required even for object ball last. This then leads me to all my years spent in golf. Which I think might be the most closely related sport to pool that requires striking a ball with a club into a hole.

In golf, you must pick your line while standing behind the ball. Once you have done this you get into the same line of the shot with your stance, waggle the club like pre strokes in pool, look up and down from ball to line just like looking back and forth from cueball and object ball, set for a short pause, backswing, and then finally strike the golf ball while having complete focus on the golf ball until contact is made then looking up.

I just found this very interesting when you look at it from another view point. Obviously this subject has been touched on many times but I wanted to have a discussion based on other sports that solely focus on the ball you’re hitting.

To me, it’s really starting to make more sense to focus only on the cue ball when you’re striking it. Once you have made a decision about the whole shot picture, focusing only on the cueball in theory seems to be the most accurate way of hitting the cue ball especially when dialing in specific amounts of english.

I’d like to hear everyone’s creative thoughts. The goal is to use the information and ideas in this thread to improve all of our games.
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I was told that "the hand follows the eye", so look at the object ball last.
 
Jesse Cool said:
I want to talk about cue ball last before stroke compared to other sports that involve striking a ball.
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Good thread. FYI, this topic is covered in detail on the eye pattern "best practices" resource page. Those interested in this topic should check out that entire page. Here's a video from the page that covers most of the important points:


Here's an excerpt from the page listing slight advantages of CB-last focus:

  1. The distant focus helps you maintain the desired aim since you can clearly see what is called the aiming “shot picture” at the OB (where your line of aim is relative to the OB that you see while “aiming while standing“).
  2. The distant focus helps you deliver the cue more straight toward your target. This is the case in other sports like with free throws in basketball (with focus on the rim), bowling (with focus on the arrows down the lane), baseball pitching (with focus on the target over the plate), horseshoes (with focus on the stake), and darts, archery, and shooting (with focus on the target), where you always want your final focused gaze to be at the distant target. This helps maintain straight aim and helps ensure straighter implement delivery in the target direction. Although, analogies with other sports are far from perfect (see more below).
  3. Focus on the OB helps ensure you keep your head and body still during and after the stroke, instead of looking up from CB focus to see where the CB is heading.
  4. With OB focus, you can better diagnose and learn from each shot since you can more clearly see the direction the CB heads and where it hits the OB, without needing to move your eyes or head during the shot.

Regardless, each person obviously needs to choose the eye pattern that is most effective for them an an individual.
 
AtLarge said:
Good post. Not dissimilar from one I have posted several times in the past:

"For one large set of sports actions, let's call it Category I, the competitor is holding or is attached to a piece of equipment and desires to direct that piece of equipment elsewhere:​
  • Throwing a baseball;
  • Throwing a football;
  • Throwing/shooting a basketball;
  • Throwing a dart;
  • Rolling a bowling ball;
  • Shooting an arrow;
  • Shooting a gun;
  • Driving a race car;
  • Riding a race horse.
In all of these, and many more, the competitor's "last look" is at the target for the ball or dart or car, etc. -- not at the ball (or steering wheel).​
​
For another large set of sports actions, let's call it Category II, the competitor holds one piece of equipment and desires to hit another piece of equipment and direct that second piece of equipment to a desired target or with a certain degree of accuracy:​
  • Hitting a baseball;
  • Kicking a football;
  • Hitting a tennis ball;
  • Hitting a golf ball;
  • Hitting a ping pong ball;
  • Hitting a badminton shuttlecock;
  • Striking a volley ball.
In all of these, and many more, the competitor's "last look" is at the ball -- not at the target for that ball and not at the piece of equipment he is holding.​
​
So how about pool/billiards? Isn't it logically a Category II action? We hold one piece of equipment (the cue stick), desiring to strike a second piece of equipment (the cue ball), and send that second piece of equipment to a desired target (a proper hit on the object ball or rail). We are throwing the cue stick in an underhand motion at the cue ball. So "cue ball last" is appropriate, right?​
​
But I am quite sure that the majority (but by no means all) of the top pool players look at the object ball last. If my analogies above are correct, why does "OB last" work so well for so many players? I believe it is because the cue ball is at rest and we can place our cue stick and bridge hand precisely behind it and thereby treat the combination of cue stick and cue ball as almost one piece of equipment instead of two. Then the cuing action becomes similar to a Category I action -- we are throwing the cue stick/ball at the object ball. So "object ball last" works just fine if the cue stick is always precisely delivered to the cue ball.​
​
So either way -- CB last or OB last -- can work well in pool. I believe analogies with other sports argue more closely for CB last (my Category II above), but just a slightly different way of viewing what's happening can create a good Category I argument.​
​
And I would add that many "CB last" folks probably also have the object ball in their peripheral vision while the central focus is on the cue ball."​
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Good post. FYI, I added a quote of it to the bottom of the eye pattern "best practices" resource page where I address other sports. Here's a pertinent excerpt from the page:

In dynamic racquet and batting sports, where the ball is moving, it is much more effective to focus on the moving ball (instead of where you want to send the ball) because you need to predict where the ball will be at the moment of contact and react very quickly. In pool, the CB is stationary so you know exactly where it will be at the moment of contact, and no fast reaction is required. Concerning golf, your gaze direction is very different for the target (looking along the desired line or landing zone down the fairway, or the cup or flag on the green) as compared to the ball (looking straight down). If you are looking at the target, you will not be able to accurately strike the ball with the club. This is analogous to elevated shots in pool like jump shots, where the gaze direction at the CB is very different from the gaze direction at the OB. With elevated pool shots, most people are more effective focusing on the CB during the final stroke, especially if the target ball is far down table. If you are looking at the OB during the stroke, you might not get an accurate hit on the CB, which is so critical with elevated shots, where even a tiny tip placement error can result in a miss.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think a major reason players who are learning aiming should look at the object ball last is to see where they land the cue ball on the object ball. For them, I think cue ball last is very bad advice.

As for the OP, it would be interesting to see before and after videos of him shooting including his eye pattern. I wonder if it was the "quiet eye" principle that gave him his perceived improvement.
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Can you explain the "quiet eye" principle again?
 
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