discussion on stance

[TATE]

I think the debate should be: what exactly is fundamentalto pool, and how is that accomplished?

Here are my random thoughts, for example, on what is actually fundamental:

Stance:

- a stance that provides a stable base for the upper body, head, and shoulders.

- a stance that allows the stroke to swing in an uninterrupted vertical plane

- a stance that positions the eyes over the vertical plane of the cue consistently from shot to shot

(if you don't believe that, try playing with either eye closed)


Stroke:

- a stroke that swings in an uninterrupted vertical plane

- a stroke that delivers the tip at a precise desired height on the cue ball

- a stroke that delivers the tip at a desired angle to the plane of the table

- a stroke that is repeatable

So, those are what I think are fundamental to playing well. If a player can't do these things, an instructor can help them figure out why.

Chris

 

[macguy]

macguy...Marcel Camp??? Didn't he play with Greenleaf? Just how OLD are you sir? LOL I'm thinking near 100...and you must have been a kid or teenager when you saw Camp play. J/K...kinda!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I knew his when he was the house man at the room I hung around. I became good friends with him and would drive him around, I don't know if he had a license but I never saw him drive a car. This was around late 1960's I first met him and he died around 1980. I saw him in the hospital just before he died. I doubt he had any visitors other then my wife and I. He was in in a semi-coma and didn't know I was there. I have to run out the door but I am going to add a little to this later.

 

[Scott Lee]

macguy...Wow, I thought he was much older. Learn something new every day! Thanks for the info! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I knew his when he was the house man at the room I hung around. I became good friends with him and would drive him around, I don't know if he had a license but I never saw him drive a car. This was around late 1960's I first met him and he died around 1980. I saw him in the hospital just before he died. I doubt he had any visitors other then my wife and I. He was in in a semi-coma and didn't know I was there. I have to run out the door but I am going to add a little to this later.

 

[Scott Lee]

Chris...Tap, tap, tap! I agree with every point you've made here.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I think the debate should be: what exactly is fundamentalto pool, and how is that accomplished?

Here are my random thoughts, for example, on what is actually fundamental:

Stance:

- a stance that provides a stable base for the upper body, head, and shoulders.

- a stance that allows the stroke to swing in an uninterrupted vertical plane

- a stance that positions the eyes over the vertical plane of the cue consistently from shot to shot

(if you don't believe that, try playing with either eye closed)


Stroke:

- a stroke that swings in an uninterrupted vertical plane

- a stroke that delivers the tip at a precise desired height on the cue ball

- a stroke that delivers the tip at a desired angle to the plane of the table

- a stroke that is repeatable

So, those are what I think are fundamental to playing well. If a player can't do these things, an instructor can help them figure out why.

Chris

 

[enzo]

If you really want to get the most out of hitting those 1,000,000 balls you would be better served learning to do it right. All playing wrong does is help you to get away with mistakes through repetition, in other words you will become a better player in spite of yourself, but is not the road to reaching your maximum potential.

Some people are un-trainable, that is just a fact ask any sports coach. But give them a player with some raw talent and a players with the ability to learn and they will turn out a first class athlete. This stuff by the way is not just speculation or theory, books have been written on the subject and it has been studied for years. Take any two players of any sport there is; give one an instructor and let the other try to play and learn by trial and error and I can tell you which one will become the better player. The biggest waste is talent that never developed due often to a players own arrogance and inability listen and learn.

wow, i do not agree at all. take two players, all things being 100% equal except for the fact that one has spent his time gambling, and the other has had lessons and spends his time with that. that is where you will see the differentiation of lessons vs real pool. it would be an outright robbery imo on who would win these sets.

so, if we are to define the efficacy of lessons, practice and pressure situations by what it should be measured by, ability to win, then i think hands down gambling and being under pressure wins. this just seems to be a fact that nobody wants to admit, im not sure why. but i do know one thing for a fact.... nobody should listen to a person in discussions like this who has a vested interest in their opinions. in other words, if you are an instructor, of course you are going to say lessons help, and demonize those who say they dont. i posted my manifesto to good pool elsewhere, there are only 3 steps.... its very simple.

anyway.... the last point ill make is that good fundamentals are there for a reason..... because they work.... my point being, if your game is getting better, then your essential fundamentals are necessarily improving. since i feel ive established gambling and pressure promote the quickest path to improvement, from there you could say that pressure teaches you fundamentals (i should say here that i feel "fundamentals" should be most closely linked and associated with accuracy and consistency of cue ball hits). so spend you money on tournaments and putting yourself under pressure rather than on an instructor. sure, i think this is perfectly reasonable even prudent advice, and i only mention it because i feel instructors on here try to sway things toward their side with erroneous arguments. and as a last, and confusing statement, ill note that i dont think getting instruction is bad, i just dont think it is the best way to go about the proces of improving, like some may have you believe. if you want instruction, seriously, go download mosconi's short book on pool (the little red one). over. that is all you'll need to get started.

i just wanted to add, because pehaps i wont have time to respond.... if you think my above logic about who will imrpove quicker, gambler or student, is wrong.... id be more than willing to put it to the test and stand by the results. ask 5 of the top players that come here what they think.... incardona maybe, j mendoza maybe... whoever, i dont care, just people that have actually been around pool halls and actually seen things and know what it takes to win real pool matches. just see what they say and end that argument there, deal?

 

[C.Milian]

wow, i do not agree at all. take two players, all things being 100% equal except for the fact that one has spent his time gambling, and the other has had lessons and spends his time with that. that is where you will see the differentiation of lessons vs real pool. it would be an outright robbery imo on who would win these sets.

so, if we are to define the efficacy of lessons, practice and pressure situations by what it should be measured by, ability to win, then i think hands down gambling and being under pressure wins. this just seems to be a fact that nobody wants to admit, im not sure why. but i do know one thing for a fact.... nobody should listen to a person in discussions like this who has a vested interest in their opinions. in other words, if you are an instructor, of course you are going to say lessons help, and demonize those who say they dont. i posted my manifesto to good pool elsewhere, there are only 3 steps.... its very simple.

anyway.... the last point ill make is that good fundamentals are there for a reason..... because they work.... my point being, if your game is getting better, then your fundamentals are improving. since i feel ive established gambling and pressure promote the quickest path to improvement, from there you could say that pressure teaches you fundamentals. so spend you money on tournaments and putting yourself under pressure rather than on an instructor. sure, i think this is perfectly reasonable even prudent advice, and i only mention it because i feel instructors on here try to sway things toward their side with erroneous arguments. and as a last, and confusing statement, ill note that i dont think getting instruction is bad, i just dont think it is the best way to go about the proces of improving, like some may have you believe. if you want instruction, seriously, go download mosconi's short book on pool (the little red one). over. that is all you'll need to get started.

I don't think instructors are bad. They can be really good for your game if you know that they play good. Some of the guys on here actually have a lot of good things to say from beginner to advance stuff. This thread should serve as proof of the knowledge you can obtain from conversing with those in the know. Already there are a few bread/butter posts.

 

[vincentwu817]

I don't think instructors are bad. They can be really good for your game if you know that they play good. Some of the guys on here actually have a lot of good things to say from beginner to advance stuff. This thread should serve as proof of the knowledge you can obtain from conversing with those in the know. Already there are a few bread/butter posts.

I agree, while instructors may not be worth the money for EVERYONE, it certainly can help a lot of people. It is definitely worth it to have someone well-qualified to watch you play and to determine the weaknesses in your game. I used to have a lot of bad habits that I never knew and was corrected by some good players (not through lessons). I would take a couple sessions just to identify the things that I need to work on, but I don't have that kind of budget

 

[enzo]

I don't think instructors are bad. They can be really good for your game if you know that they play good. Some of the guys on here actually have a lot of good things to say from beginner to advance stuff. This thread should serve as proof of the knowledge you can obtain from conversing with those in the know. Already there are a few bread/butter posts.

i dont think they are bad either, notice im just saying i dont think they provide the quickest or best path to improvement. also, im saying that an instructor's opinions are not the ones to be listening to when it comes to these discussions. cheers, gotta run

 

[C.Milian]

Yeah....Scott? This is your neck of the woulds isn't it?

 

[Neil]

..................

 

[duckie]

The only thing that really matters is being able to peform the shot you want when you want. How you do it doesn't matter. How means how you stand, quality of stroke and so on.

Until you realize its all mental, you are just gonna look good losing.

 

[C.Milian]

I am a part-time instructor, and have gambled since day 2. I know both sides of the equation quite well. In 35+ years of playing, I have seen only a couple of players that did it on there own, and are at a point that an instructor would help them very little. (although, at that level, the little things can make a huge difference). Meaning, that they basically are doing things right. They don't have any glaring errors that someone in the know can spot right off and know that person could be better with some instruction.

One of those people, did have lessons early on. He totally dismissed them as a waste of money. The guy is a natural, and plays at a very high level. Not long ago, we were talking about instruction, and he told me that. He also stated that he was wrong at the time, and eventually figured out that everything the instructor told him was spot on. Being a natural, he was able to figure out over time what did and didn't work, and ended up where the instructor wanted him to be a couple of years before that.

Due to instruction, my game is higher than it has ever been. Even after all those years of only gambling. You don't know what you don't know, and just putting money on a game is not going to teach it to you. I'm all for gambling, and how it will improve your game by forcing you to pay attention. But, instruction will greatly shorten that learning curve. Instruction is not a replacement for gambling, nor vice versa. Both are good elements within reason to incorporate in your game. But instruction can not only save you a lot of money, it can make you a lot of money.

Indeed. .......deleted.

 

[Scott Lee]

enzo...While you "might" be right for a very small segment of poolplayers, you're dead wrong about the majority of people who want to improve, and don't have (or want to wait) years to get better. You have know what to practice and how to get the most out of it. Just hitting a million balls may not do it for most of us...and probably won't. Shane Van Boening is a great example of a world class player who got a good start through instruction, and THEN increased his skill through tournament competition and gambling. There are many other examples too. The German players do not gamble, and learned from instructors, yet they are world class competitors. How do you explain that?...just an accident I guess. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but you don't know anything about how the brain and body learns best.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

i dont think they are bad either, notice im just saying i dont think they provide the quickest or best path to improvement. also, im saying that an instructor's opinions are not the ones to be listening to when it comes to these discussions. cheers, gotta run

 

[Ratta]

enzo...While you "might" be right for a very small segment of poolplayers, you're dead wrong about the majority of people who want to improve, and don't have (or want to wait) years to get better. You have know what to practice and how to get the most out of it. Just hitting a million balls may not do it for most of us...and probably won't. Shane Van Boening is a great example of a world class player who got a good start through instruction, and THEN increased his skill through tournament competition and gambling. There are many other examples too. The German players do not gamble, and learned from instructors, yet they are world class competitors. How do you explain that?...just an accident I guess. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but you don't know anything about how the brain and body learns best.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

"High Five" for you Scott
I also didn t know about so MANY accidents

lg
Ingo

 

[macguy]

I agree, while instructors may not be worth the money for EVERYONE, it certainly can help a lot of people. It is definitely worth it to have someone well-qualified to watch you play and to determine the weaknesses in your game. I used to have a lot of bad habits that I never knew and was corrected by some good players (not through lessons). I would take a couple sessions just to identify the things that I need to work on, but I don't have that kind of budget

I am by no means an instructor, it is all I can do to play my own game, "But". From years of owning a pool room (2) and hanging around pool rooms I have many times helped beginning players and somewhat advanced players. It is without exception you can see them advance right before your eyes. I can not tell you how many times I would have a customer who comes in with his buddies, for years even, who for some reason decides to ask a few questions. Maybe come back at another time and get on the table with me for a few hours and I just show him how to play the game a little easier. He doesn't want to be some champ he just wants to play a little better and have some fun. Almost without exception his buddies can't even play with him anymore after a while and this is after they have played together for years.

Contrary to popular belief, Pool is not a hard game to play. With a little proper practice and proper instruction, especially for the beginner, anyone can become a decent player. This instruction by the way can even be self taught by observing and taking advantage of all the information that is out there, but hands on and personal instruction is probably the best. Most people are pretty smart, they will understand it if they really desire to. For most good players the most common comment they hear is, "Wow, you make it look so easy". That is because it is, maybe easier for some more then others but by no means brain surgery. Jerry Briesath used to do a demonstration where he would take someone usually a girl who could not play at all and in one lesson have her pocketing balls, playing simple position actually playing the game. If you go in any pool room you can look around and see people who haven't improved one bit in spite of coming in and playing for like 2 or 3 times a week for possibly years. I used to see it all the time and you would wonder why they don't discover some of the most simple concepts of the game just by chance on their own, yet they will make the same mistakes over and over for years.

 

[macguy]

macguy...Wow, I thought he was much older. Learn something new every day! Thanks for the info! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I did some record searching and I found this, the dates and place match, plus it is not a common name. I pulled up the zip code and that would have been about where he lived around 163rd and Biscayne near the pool room.

MARCEL CAMP
Aug 05, 1908
Dec 01, 1979
Last residence: 33162 (Miami, Miami-Dade, FL)
Last benefit: 32673 (Miami, Miami-Dade, FL)

I think the thing about pool players when we think about them is, some seem to have been around forever. I am almost always surprised to see someones age as being younger then I thought because they were maybe out there playing good pool as a teenager. A lot of those Johnston city guys were just kids back then.

 

[Scott Lee]

Tap, tap, tap! Excellent post...from the horse's mouth! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I am by no means an instructor, it is all I can do to play my own game, "But". From years of owning a pool room (2) and hanging around pool rooms I have many times helped beginning players and somewhat advanced players. It is without exception you can see them advance right before your eyes. I can not tell you how many times I would have a customer who comes in with his buddies, for years even, who for some reason decides to ask a few questions. Maybe come back at another time and get on the table with me for a few hours and I just show him how to play the game a little easier. He doesn't want to be some champ he just wants to play a little better and have some fun. Almost without exception his buddies can't even play with him anymore after a while and this is after they have played together for years.

Contrary to popular belief, Pool is not a hard game to play. With a little proper practice and proper instruction, especially for the beginner, anyone can become a decent player. This instruction by the way can even be self taught by observing and taking advantage of all the information that is out there, but hands on and personal instruction is probably the best. Most people are pretty smart, they will understand it if they really desire to. For most good players the most common comment they hear is, "Wow, you make it look so easy". That is because it is, maybe easier for some more then others but by no means brain surgery. Jerry Briesath used to do a demonstration where he would take someone usually a girl who could not play at all and in one lesson have her pocketing balls, playing simple position actually playing the game. If you go in any pool room you can look around and see people who haven't improved one bit in spite of coming in and playing for like 2 or 3 times a week for possibly years. I used to see it all the time and you would wonder why they don't discover some of the most simple concepts of the game just by chance on their own, yet they will make the same mistakes over and over for years.

 

[vincentwu817]

I am by no means an instructor, it is all I can do to play my own game, "But". From years of owning a pool room (2) and hanging around pool rooms I have many times helped beginning players and somewhat advanced players. It is without exception you can see them advance right before your eyes. I can not tell you how many times I would have a customer who comes in with his buddies, for years even, who for some reason decides to ask a few questions. Maybe come back at another time and get on the table with me for a few hours and I just show him how to play the game a little easier. He doesn't want to be some champ he just wants to play a little better and have some fun. Almost without exception his buddies can't even play with him anymore after a while and this is after they have played together for years.

Contrary to popular belief, Pool is not a hard game to play. With a little proper practice and proper instruction, especially for the beginner, anyone can become a decent player. This instruction by the way can even be self taught by observing and taking advantage of all the information that is out there, but hands on and personal instruction is probably the best. Most people are pretty smart, they will understand it if they really desire to. For most good players the most common comment they hear is, "Wow, you make it look so easy". That is because it is, maybe easier for some more then others but by no means brain surgery. Jerry Briesath used to do a demonstration where he would take someone usually a girl who could not play at all and in one lesson have her pocketing balls, playing simple position actually playing the game. If you go in any pool room you can look around and see people who haven't improved one bit in spite of coming in and playing for like 2 or 3 times a week for possibly years. I used to see it all the time and you would wonder why they don't discover some of the most simple concepts of the game just by chance on their own, yet they will make the same mistakes over and over for years.

Awesome man! Great to hear that there are guys out there like you. To run racks is one story, and to play pool properly is another one. I spent awhile trying to figure the game out - I could draw and follow and use basic english, but I had no concept on how to apply them properly. And it really just did take me a few sessions with someone who knew that they were doing to open up my game. Although I still missed a lot of shots, at least I know what I am trying to accomplish.

The thing about these players that play for fun is that they do want to get better, but when they look at us - the more serious players, they think it is impossible to reach that stage. They don't realize that some concepts and a fix on their stroke could change their game completely. And while their game is improving, they will learn to love the game more as well! I've always enjoyed playing pool, but after learning how to play properly, my hours at the table increased dramatically.

Great post man. I hope that more of us would take the initiative to approach these guys and show them how its done.

 

[TATE]

Awesome man! Great to hear that there are guys out there like you. To run racks is one story, and to play pool properly is another one. I spent awhile trying to figure the game out - I could draw and follow and use basic english, but I had no concept on how to apply them properly. And it really just did take me a few sessions with someone who knew that they were doing to open up my game. Although I still missed a lot of shots, at least I know what I am trying to accomplish.

The thing about these players that play for fun is that they do want to get better, but when they look at us - the more serious players, they think it is impossible to reach that stage. They don't realize that some concepts and a fix on their stroke could change their game completely. And while their game is improving, they will learn to love the game more as well! I've always enjoyed playing pool, but after learning how to play properly, my hours at the table increased dramatically.

Great post man. I hope that more of us would take the initiative to approach these guys and show them how its done.

Macguy may not be a professional instructor, but he was a 200+ ball straight pool runner, a former pool room owner, money player, cue maker and much more. His knowledge and experience is considerable and he has been a trustworthy sourch of information on the internet since my first day posting.

Chris

 

[C.Milian]

Mac,

I don't doubt your credentials. And I've heard it many times that action will force you into better form....I totally agree.

As for stance:

Tate is pretty spot on with his list. It's the how that I'm sure people are interested in. I'm nothing close to a great instructor, so I'll let everyone else do the deed. :embarrassed2:. however I can relate a few things I've picked up....

If you've done stretches for the hems where you touch your toes, you'll know how it feels to work on stance. I'm not saying to straighten the legs like that, because I've felt that stretch with legs slightly bent. It's pretty gruesome work. I end up eating 5-6 meals after those workouts. Then wake up the next day and get my ass handed to me by a c player in the local tourney. ThEN! it's back to the process. Eat ache, lose to a c player. then....no more and then. Bye AZ.

Christina out.