Discussion Topic: Consistency

[3kushn]

The only thing you need is a pat on the back for having observant eyes and an open mind.

I filmed myself the other day, and I noticed that I have a slight elbow drop on most shots. At the time, that was a little disconcerting.

Then at the pool room last night I was watching Rodney Morris practice, and I was specifically looking for the elbow drop. And guess what? It was there.

Now one thing I noticed that Rodney and I have in common is that we are both a little more upright in our stances than a lot of other players. It then occured to me that the higher you are in your stance, the more vertical your upper arm becomes, and the less swing range you have from the elbow down. That could lead to some forward movement of the upper arm (elbow drop) in order to get a full stroke through the ball. For further evidence of this, look at how low Allison Fisher gets over the cue. That allows her more swing range from the elbow down; and she does get a full stroke through the ball with no elbow drop.

Now, I'm beginning to think that stance height, forearm length, and bridge length all play a major role in whether the elbow drops, or it doesn't.

What do you think? Could I be onto something here?

Roger

You may have something as far as stance is concerned and maybe explains the break shot where the best 9 ball breakers rise up and finish with a tremendous elbow drop. But if you look at the Snooker players, the classical stance is with the chin on the cue and it seems that the best players today have a drop. Very small but consistantly there.


Check this out. Early Allison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPoXBgG2bjI

Then compare to this. Current Allison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZJSa2fxmT8

A very subtle difference but still there.

Now here's what Lee is talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btmB-p_0QFg

 

[Roger Long]

You may have something as far as stance is concerned and maybe explains the break shot where the best 9 ball breakers rise up and finish with a tremendous elbow drop. But if you look at the Snooker players, the classical stance is with the chin on the cue and it seems that the best players today have a drop. Very small but consistantly there.


Check this out. Early Allison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPoXBgG2bjI

Then compare to this. Current Allison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZJSa2fxmT8

A very subtle difference but still there.

Now here's what Lee is talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btmB-p_0QFg

Yes, I see what you mean. As you said, the players are low over the cue, and they still have a bit of elbow drop. This can only be a product of the bridge length they use, combined with the length of follow through.

The question that remains: are the players contacting the cue ball when the cue is at its most level point (which is generally accepted as being the most optimum time)? But whether they are, or they are not, I am ready to accept one thing as truth: a player can achieve consistent results either with, or without, dropping the elbow. It all depends on the player. :smile:

Roger

 

[Cameron Smith]

You may have something as far as stance is concerned and maybe explains the break shot where the best 9 ball breakers rise up and finish with a tremendous elbow drop. But if you look at the Snooker players, the classical stance is with the chin on the cue and it seems that the best players today have a drop. Very small but consistantly there.


Check this out. Early Allison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPoXBgG2bjI

Then compare to this. Current Allison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZJSa2fxmT8

A very subtle difference but still there.

Now here's what Lee is talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btmB-p_0QFg

The thing to watch in the Ronnie clip, is when he drops his elbow. On delicate shots, it is all forearm. When he requires more power, his elbow drops to allow for a fluid follow through.

It's essentially the same as golf. The follow through is different depending on the type of shot, chip and pitch shots look quite a bit different than full swings. You have to let the momentum carry through or else you wont be able to deliver the maximum amount speed you are physically capable of.

The follow through, as I have previously mentioned has absolutely nothing to do with keeping your tip on the ball. No one in golf believes that the club is pushing the ball upward. It's all about timing your stroke so that you contact the ball at peak velocity.

I agree that beginners should avoid the elbow drop as they devolop their stroke, but I think the next logical development is a slight drop (arms width), whatever is neccessary to get the cue through the ball.

Personally I can generate a lot of power without a drop in my elbow. But I find that I generate the same amount of power with considerably less effort if I let my cue get through the cueball better. And the less effort you have to expend the more consistent you will be.

 

[lee brett]

elbow drop

if any of you ever get to toronto, come see me and i will teach you this technique and you will be amazed, i have already had people commenting on the snooker forum about my coaching and how they feel amazing now, look out for john morra who i coach, he will soon be winning big events on tour and will be a world 9 ball ball champion, he was canadian junior champion and i have changed his game and he said it feels amazing so much more control, i now coach denise belanger on the ladies tour, and looking forward to having her be very successful, and questions on this technique of up to down cue action with dropping the elbow, feel free to ask me, the high arm enables elbow drop very easily as it has to go down, the wrist is a flexible joint and playing with the wrist lots of things can go wrong, the elbow is a solid joint, and is more consistent under pressure...

 

[TX Poolnut]

For me, consistency comes down to focus. I lose consistency when I am lazy around the table.

 

[Scott Lee]

Roger...The key is WHEN the elbow begins to move (this can only be seen in slow motion/stop action video). If it is before contact with the CB, it can cause you to miss where you're aiming. If it is after contact, it has no affect on aim or contact. However, it also cannot provide any positive influence, since the CB is already gone. It's extraneous motion, with no benefit...other than perhaps "it feels good'. A perfect pendulum swing does not require, nor need, an elbow drop, to perform ANY shot that can be made by dropping the elbow. I've thrown out this challenge before, and nobody has come forward. Show me a shot you (or someone) can make by dropping the elbow, that can't be made without doing it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

The only thing you need is a pat on the back for having observant eyes and an open mind.

I filmed myself the other day, and I noticed that I have a slight elbow drop on most shots. At the time, that was a little disconcerting.

Then at the pool room last night I was watching Rodney Morris practice, and I was specifically looking for the elbow drop. And guess what? It was there.

Now one thing I noticed that Rodney and I have in common is that we are both a little more upright in our stances than a lot of other players. It then occured to me that the higher you are in your stance, the more vertical your upper arm becomes, and the less swing range you have from the elbow down. That could lead to some forward movement of the upper arm (elbow drop) in order to get a full stroke through the ball. For further evidence of this, look at how low Allison Fisher gets over the cue. That allows her more swing range from the elbow down; and she does get a full stroke through the ball with no elbow drop.

Now, I'm beginning to think that stance height, forearm length, and bridge length all play a major role in whether the elbow drops, or it doesn't.

What do you think? Could I be onto something here?

Roger

 

[Scott Lee]

lee brett...Why does the elbow have to go down?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

i the high arm enables elbow drop very easily as it has to go down, the wrist is a flexible joint and playing with the wrist lots of things can go wrong, the elbow is a solid joint, and is more consistent under pressure...

 

[Roger Long]

Roger...The key is WHEN the elbow begins to move (this can only be seen in slow motion/stop action video). If it is before contact with the CB, it can cause you to miss where you're aiming. If it is after contact, it has no affect on aim or contact. However, it also cannot provide any positive influence, since the CB is already gone. It's extraneous motion, with no benefit...other than perhaps "it feels good'. A perfect pendulum swing does not require, nor need, an elbow drop, to perform ANY shot that can be made by dropping the elbow. I've thrown out this challenge before, and nobody has come forward. Show me a shot you (or someone) can make by dropping the elbow, that can't be made without doing it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott:

I don't disagree with anything you've said about the elbow drop. I am not a proponent of the elbow drop at all; I am a firm believer in the benefits that can be derived from a pure pendulum swing. What I was attempting to point out, however, is that upright players do not have the the best range of level cue travel, so they have to have some measure of hinge action going on in the shoulder, which then leads to a forward movement in the elbow, and which we like to term "elbow drop."

To see what I mean, try this. Standing upright, hold your shooting arm straight down by your side. Now, with your upper arm held stationary by your side, pull your lower arm back as far as it will go and then note the distance it has moved away from your hip. (Not all that far, is it?) Now bring the lower arm forward as far as it will go and note that the hand should stop up by the chest. What we have just performed is a pure pendulum swing from an upright position. But now, with the hand still up by the chest, pretend that you are holding the butt end of a cue in that hand, and that your other hand is holding the tip end down on the table as though you had just completed a shot. Now note the extreme angle the cue would be at if you were actually holding one. Not a pretty sight, is it? For a stroke to work from an upright position, there will have to be some swing action from the shoulder in order to achieve maximum cue levelness through the full range of the stroke. (I know a guy with a spinal injury, and this is exactly how he has to shoot, poor fellow).

I know the above is an extreme example of an upright stance, but my point is simply that the more upright a player is in his/her stance, the more likely you will be to notice some elbow drop (shoulder hinge). But as you pointed out Scott, the really important thing is that the "drop" takes place after contact with the cue ball.

Roger



except maybe the part about "this can only be seen