Do diamond tables make you play better?

[NastyNate13]

My room has 3 9' diamonds, 2 7' diamonds, and 4 Brunswick GC and I prefer to play on the Diamonds. In a room where the 2 most popular games are 14.1 and 8 ball, I hate playing on the Brunswicks that have 5" pockets. For some reason, I can't run more than 10 balls on it. The rails, cheating the pockets, and speed are so unfamiliar to me.


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[jalapus logan]

A lot of players will disagree with you-many pros as well. The crux of it-Practicing on super tight tables will give you a timid stroke.

I agree with this. I also think that playing mostly on a table with really tight pockets prevents a player from learning what patterns, banks, etc are possible on a standard pro table like a diamond pro. I think the 9' diamond pro table represents the best balance of difficulty.

Here is Greg Sullivan of Diamond Billiards explaining about pocket specs. BTW, you'll never get a brunswick guy to do this, cause they don't give a sh$t about the game. Diamond does, and it shows.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

To me it takes out part of the game thats important too. Cheating the pocket is a great part of the game that super tight pockets all but eliminate.

At least periodic practice on tight tables benefits 99% of players, as they often make up very poor position play with cheating of the pocket...

Short Bus Russ - C Player

 

[realkingcobra]

At least periodic practice on tight tables benefits 99% of players, as they often make up very poor position play with cheating of the pocket...

Short Bus Russ - C Player

Then it should go without saying that if a player practices on tables with nothing but 4" corner pockets, they should have no problem winning on tables with 4 1/2" corner pockets......but that just don't seem to work out like that because they still end up missing shots...easy shots at that.

 

[garczar]

At least periodic practice on tight tables benefits 99% of players, as they often make up very poor position play with cheating of the pocket...

Short Bus Russ - C Player

Cheating the pocket is part of position play. My home room has GC4's w/4" pockets. Good practice but not much fun to play on, makes you play "cinch" pool too much. Pretty tough if you're not high-caliber player.

 

[Renegade_56]

Then it should go without saying that if a player practices on tables with nothing but 4" corner pockets, they should have no problem winning on tables with 4 1/2" corner pockets......but that just don't seem to work out like that because they still end up missing shots...easy shots at that.

and, pocket size has much less to do with playing well than cue ball control.

Pocket size has little effect if you can shoot center pocket also.

Different pocket angles also make a lot of difference.

 

[Bavafongoul]

NoStroke....I politely but nonetheless strongly disagree strongly with your opinion.

It actually gives you a more confident stroke. The table punishes weaker players.
And when you switch to a table with normal size pockets, it becomes so much easier.
It's the same when you change from the 10 ft snooker table to playing on the 9 ft tables.

When you practice and play on tables like Blue Fin Billiards & other parlors maintain,
you actually become a stronger and better player. And at the same time, any weaker
opponents are at a distinct disadvantage since sloppy shots get rejected by the pockets
and shooting accuracy becomes so much more important. Tighter pockets make your
become a better player if you are committed & really understand why you miss a shot.

The harder the table, the more skill becomes a deciding factor......and your skills will get
better if you are a student of the game & appreciate the nuances of playing on a tough table.
Now this is just my opinion but it is based upon common sense & more than 5 decades of pool
playing. The tougher the table, the better you become since, in general, most of the tables you
compete on have more generous size pockets, even when they are only standard 4.5". pockets.
Weaker opponents become challenged by tighter pockets which is an edge to the stronger player.


Matt B.

 

[Bavafongoul]

"Prevents a player from learning what patterns, banks, etc are possible on a standard pro table like a diamond pro".......by Jalapus


The above makes little sense.....the patterns of play are identical no matter what table you play on.
Position play is just that.....position, banks are just that......banks......same applies to all cut shots.

The harder the table, the better you become if you have good practice routines. In baseball, you
can swing with a 37 ounce bat in practice and still use a 32 oz. version for actual games. Your
swing gets faster and better with added control and power to boot. Imagine practice putting with
a cup that was 3.5" in diameter vs. the standard size of 4.25"? Your putting will get better faster.

Cue ball speed doesn;t change on a table with smaller pockets. Position shape doesn't change
whether, not do bank shots. The pocket opening is smaller so you must become more accurate and
to my way of thinking, the more accurate any player becomes, the better is their overall ability to
peform and more consistently pocket pool balls while also achieving and preserving position play.




p.s. "Winning has to do with the players' attitude more than his actual skills. The better player doesn't always win."

 

[fastone371]

You are making a lot of assumptions here.

First I have worked on many Valley tables and know that up until several years ago they had 3 bolts attaching them, but now it is 5 and some people update their older tables to take the 5 bolt rails directly.

Second not all Valley tables have a cue ball return. Beyond that I bet if it was possible to blind test you I could put out the good Aramith iron filled ball used by some and you couldn't tell a difference compared to any other.

I have seen numerous Diamond tables with pockets and shelves the same, or very close to the same, as Valley tables.

There are differences out there in both brands that make them harder or easier than others.

Diamonds have a 4 1/2" pocket with a much deeper shelf than a Valley. If one ball is in the jaws of a Diamond a second ball will not pass thru. On the same situation with a Valley sometimes you can squeeze a ball by without moving the first ball. You can clip the long rail much further away from the pocket on a Diamond compared to a Valley. I like to play on Diamonds against people who play mostly on Valleys, you can tell right away because they keep jawing shots from hitting the rail with speed trying to pocket balls. I compete mostly on Diamonds, I have heard of league cut Diamonds but have yet to see any, all the Diamonds I see are 4 1/2" pockets. Besides my Gold Crown I have a Valley at home with Penguin rails and Championship cloth, the best way to describe the difference between a them is the Valleys set up like this have fast beds and slow rails, the Diamonds have fast rails with matching bed speed.

I believe Diamonds are 40" x 80" and 7' Valleys are 38" x 76"

 

[fastone371]

"Prevents a player from learning what patterns, banks, etc are possible on a standard pro table like a diamond pro".......by Jalapus


The above makes little sense.....the patterns of play are identical no matter what table you play on.
Position play is just that.....position, banks are just that......banks......same applies to all cut shots.

The harder the table, the better you become if you have good practice routines. In baseball, you
can swing with a 37 ounce bat in practice and still use a 32 oz. version for actual games. Your
swing gets faster and better with added control and power to boot. Imagine practice putting with
a cup that was 3.5" in diameter vs. the standard size of 4.25"? Your putting will get better faster.

Cue ball speed doesn;t change on a table with smaller pockets. Position shape doesn't change
whether, not do bank shots. The pocket opening is smaller so you must become more accurate and
to my way of thinking, the more accurate any player becomes, the better is their overall ability to
peform and more consistently pocket pool balls while also achieving and preserving position play.




p.s. "Winning has to do with the players' attitude more than his actual skills. The better player doesn't always win."

I completely agree with Jalapus Logan about real tight pockets making you play differently. Even with good position play cheating the pockets i a huge part of the game, especially after an opponent miss or after the break where you can not control QB position. There are shots you wont take or play much differently on tight pockets, like going down the rail with speed when you need to move the cue ball a long distance or certain bank shots etc. I agree that tight pockets will improve your accuracy but too much practice on tight pockets may change the way you play and read the table.

 

[jalapus logan]

"Prevents a player from learning what patterns, banks, etc are possible on a standard pro table like a diamond pro".......by Jalapus


The above makes little sense.....the patterns of play are identical no matter what table you play on.
Position play is just that.....position, banks are just that......banks......same applies to all cut shots.

The harder the table, the better you become if you have good practice routines. In baseball, you
can swing with a 37 ounce bat in practice and still use a 32 oz. version for actual games. Your
swing gets faster and better with added control and power to boot. Imagine practice putting with
a cup that was 3.5" in diameter vs. the standard size of 4.25"? Your putting will get better faster.

Cue ball speed doesn;t change on a table with smaller pockets. Position shape doesn't change
whether, not do bank shots. The pocket opening is smaller so you must become more accurate and
to my way of thinking, the more accurate any player becomes, the better is their overall ability to
peform and more consistently pocket pool balls while also achieving and preserving position play.




p.s. "Winning has to do with the players' attitude more than his actual skills. The better player doesn't always win."

Players will absolutely pass up makeable shots on a tighter table and it certainly contributes to their perception of what is worth shooting, given the risk of missing. For a beginning player trying to learn position routes, a really tight table is counterproductive, IMO. I've talked to at least one pro player that agrees with this, but everyone has their opinion. I think its good to play on a variety of tables and conditions.

 

[KRJ]

Players will absolutely pass up makeable shots on a tighter table and it certainly contributes to their perception of what is worth shooting, given the risk of missing. For a beginning player trying to learn position routes, a really tight table is counterproductive, IMO. I've talked to at least one pro player that agrees with this, but everyone has their opinion. I think its good to play on a variety of tables and conditions.

Yes, I agree.

For beginner and intermediate players, I think a tighter table will be less effective. After all, they don't suddenly say, ok, on his shot, I will deliver a straight stroke unlike the prior 12 years I've been doing this They have other "problems" that are causing them to miss makeable shots.

Nor, will they say, oh crap, I need to really hit this one good and thus, now I will "aim" just a little better on this shot then I ever did before. Not really sure how they suddenly decide to 'aim" better anyways Thus, they lose site of cue ball control and other variables.

For a great player, maybe shortstop to pro, then yep, a tight table is great, cause they can still pound the shot in when needed and get position, and if they don't, they can make the necessary adjustments that might be needed to make certain shots.

 

[jayburger]

My opinion is that you can "make " a valley,gc1-4, dynamo, kim steel,etc... Table play better by changing rails and cloth etc... But i think that diamonds play near perfect from day one and come with fast rails and simonis cloth ,standard i think, and they simply play better than anything out there unless you pay alot of money to have your table upgraded to play "as good as" a diamond does from day one. You will pay more for the diamond up front, but like everything else in life,you get what you pay for and diamond is the best in my opinion.with that said,be careful when you order one because when they give you a delivery date it is rare that they actually meet it.they will get you your table but usually after the original delivery date(i don,t know why ,but just never seem to meet the date) but i would still only buy a diamond if i was looking to buy a table. I have a buddy who ordered more than ten and has been given the run around a couple of times so far,but again the derby city classic might have taken alot of diamonds"people" to set up for the tournament and they have "guranteed delivery this week" we shall see.I DO REALIzE THIs has nothing to do with"does a diamond make you play better" but i do think on diamond tables you have to pocket all balls cleanly(can,t touch rails on the way in" or the ball won,t go,it will hang or get spit out,that definately will make you play better if you pocket balls on a diamond you will certainly be able to pocket ball on anything else unless it is "tricked up" ( 3-7/8 pockets etc...)

 

[Bavafongoul]

A beginner should start on Gold Crowns with the larger pockets.
It's important for a beginner to develop confidence and it makes
the overall experience more satisfying and rewarding.

Serious players should find the toughest table there is to practice
on. And shot selection and position play doesn't change one bit.
You play the table the same regardless of the pockets being tighter.
The shot selected doesn't change because of the table's pockets.
Heck no, you play the same as you always do but just focus more
intensely and try harder. My gosh, you don't back off a shot or pick
an easier shot when you practice. I don't know how everyone practices.
I've even use Pro Pocket Reducers on Blue Fin's tight table pockets.
We play golf on the 10' snooker table using 2 1/4" standard pool balls.

The harder the table, the better my practice time becomes and at the
the same time, it challenges you to play better or suffer the outcome.
In a tournament, or a money game, you duly consider the odds or the
probability of the shot you pick going in. If the corner pockets are rejecting
well struck bank shots, then obviously that is something to think about. But
the notion of a table with tight pockets affecting the shots you select to play
for a table run when you are practicing, well, maybe for a beginner but IMO
a stronger player plays the table without even thinking about the pockets.

 

[noMoreSchon]

Of coarse learning patterns is easier with larger pockets, when you juice the ball

and are able to make the ball and get shape, but watching pro level pool do their patterns

look like mine. A resolutely hell no. They come upon the ball on the right side, with the

right angle to get shape for the next ball. Whether they play on tight or loose pockets it

doesn't change. So is it helpful to the beginner to have that variance? Sure. Will his game

be better by choosing the right path and getting on that path, instead of over stroking for

shape. Absolutely Tight pockets forces the player to choose the easiest path, and after

all isn't that what is necessary to become proficient at this game?. I personally love over stroking

my balls! But inherently know that on tables that do not allow that my shape has to

be more thought out to win. It is great feeling to stroke a ball 3 rails to get on the next one

but even better to plan ahead and not have to.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Diamond bar boxes have tight pockets ?
At 4 1/2 corners, they are not that tight.
These are bar boxes after all.
They should be 4 1/4 at the most imo.

 

[Skippy27]

Diamond bar boxes have tight pockets ?
At 4 1/2 corners, they are not that tight.
These are bar boxes after all.
They should be 4 1/4 at the most imo.

Pocket size is only one factor that determines how hard a table plays.

Shelf size and rail angles are the other 2,

 

[jalapus logan]

Diamond bar boxes have tight pockets ?
At 4 1/2 corners, they are not that tight.
These are bar boxes after all.
They should be 4 1/4 at the most imo.

Not to be overly contrary, but imo, all "bar box" tables sbould have relatively loose pockets. After all, they are designed to be in a pub environment and should therefore be designed to cater to the intermittent, recreational player.

Also IMO, bar boxes have no role at the pro pool level, period.

 

[hang-the-9]

I went for lunch and watched local league guys play and was intrigued by the statement that this guy made "diamond tables are easy and make everyone look better" all the bars in this league play on 7ft valleys that have seen better days, lol

Just wondering if this thought process had any merit????? I'm from the school of thought that the better conditions/equipment make the better player more capable of using his/her full arsenal of skills. And going down in conditions was more of an equalizer

And for the statement that diamond tables are easy, throw some simonios and aramith balls on a 7ft valley and I'll show you easy! Lol

I think the more correct statement would be "bad tables make people look worse" rather than good tables are easy to play on. I guess someone going form an un-level table with dirty cloth and a over-size cue ball would find playing on a Diamond or any well setup table "easier" to deal with. Probably much like someone going from a Toyota Tercel would find driving a BMW 3 series "easier" to drive.

 

[Mkindsv]

Focused practice will make you better...on any equipment