There’s no diamonds or points of reference on snooker tables that I know of. It’s unbelievable how good they are at single and multi rail kick shots. Do they use some type of system that doesn’t require reference points embedded on the rails or is it all just feel?
Do snooker players kick by feel?
- Thread starter cuetechasaurus
- Start date
Kick and bank.
Angles are angles, whether there are diamonds or not...
Angles are angles, whether there are diamonds or not...
My other half is a "feel" player, and he was once asked to describe it. It's hard to describe. Me personally, I think it's a combination of skill, experience, and instinct, all rolled up together.
I've become a huge snooker fan. Being a railbird, it's easy to spot a few characteristics about technique. Snooker players always address the ball, as Jimmy Reid strongly endorsed, before stepping up to the table, but the other trait I see all snooker players do is after the fire the trigger, they stay down. Pool players jump up and shoot to fast sometimes. Some people call that rhythm, I guess.
Another interesting trait about snooker, many of them rest their chin firmly on the cue stick. A lot of Filipino pool players do this as well, and as we all know, Filipino pool players are strong.
Check out Ronnie O'Sullivan's chin.
I've become a huge snooker fan. Being a railbird, it's easy to spot a few characteristics about technique. Snooker players always address the ball, as Jimmy Reid strongly endorsed, before stepping up to the table, but the other trait I see all snooker players do is after the fire the trigger, they stay down. Pool players jump up and shoot to fast sometimes. Some people call that rhythm, I guess.
Another interesting trait about snooker, many of them rest their chin firmly on the cue stick. A lot of Filipino pool players do this as well, and as we all know, Filipino pool players are strong.
Check out Ronnie O'Sullivan's chin.
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Diamond systems are over-rated, IMO. There are lots of indicators on a snooker table...6 spots and 6 pockets..and a balk line, to name a few. But speed and spin (high and low besides side) are variants, as are temperature and humidity.
...and snooker rails are flat edged, reactions are different...also, heavier cloth doesn’t allow spin to stay on the ball as long.
Hoppe developed the diamond system as a teaching aid...a fair amount of it should be dropped like training wheels when one gets to a higher level. This is discussed in Byrne’s book, McGoorty.
When a player like Keith looks at a shot, he doesn’t see LESS than a systems player, he sees MORE.
I have snooker roots, and since my transition to pool 20+ yrs ago, I have never adopted a kicking system. I can only speak for myself, and I'm a decent "kicker" on either size of table, but I wouldn't say it's a "feel" thing.
Theoretical pool (shot decision making) in any form is just geometry and memory. You don't need diamonds on a table to determine the angles of reflection.
I'd hazard a guess and say any decent pool player would be just as good performing a kick without the diamonds on the table. I mean really..., it's just a symmetrical decoration that players one day figured out could be useful for plotting shot paths.
Theoretical pool (shot decision making) in any form is just geometry and memory. You don't need diamonds on a table to determine the angles of reflection.
I'd hazard a guess and say any decent pool player would be just as good performing a kick without the diamonds on the table. I mean really..., it's just a symmetrical decoration that players one day figured out could be useful for plotting shot paths.
I believe top pool players kick purely by feel, spin and speed as well.
No, Hoppe did not develop the diamond system. He never used it, but allowed it to be included in one of his books. And you are misremembering McGoorty's account. He said that Hoppi tested out the diamond system and told Dan something like, "It works, but only if your stroke and speed are perfect."
Pool/snooker/billiards is physics, not geometry. You don't get pure angles of reflection, in cue games, because those theoretical geometric angles are significantly affected by both speed and spin, i.e., physics.
Well there you have it... Everything I thought I knew about billiards has now finally been disproved. My ability to play center ball is an impossibility, splashing balls for warm ups is a waste of time, using a level cue is inherently wrong, and now geometry in pool doesn't exist.
And here I thought I was adding some worth while content to AZ....lol.
I'll just regulate myself to the Ghost Challenge threads.
And here I thought I was adding some worth while content to AZ....lol.
I'll just regulate myself to the Ghost Challenge threads.
I said geometry and memory. I'm kinda thinking I need to expand on "memory" but at this point I'm firmly convinced I have zero clue how to play this game.
That is how I remember it...implied was that he didn’t use it himself...he was more like Sang Lee?
..and Hoppe’s system was not original, true, it was a compilation of knowledge that was going around.
And we agree on the physics aspect...I showed a player who thought he had it al figured out how a combo struck in the same place at two different speeds went two different places.
Geosnookery
Well-known member
It’s a good question because ‘I don’t know’.
I’ve played snooker since age 14...52 years. I just instinctively know where to hit on the rail. On an American pool table I still never look at the diamonds or dots.
There are two Shots I always play relatively quickly with little thought. Kicks off a rail and Long 12 foot table length shots. I find it’s like throwing a baseball back and forth...over thinking just clutters the mind.
I’ve played snooker since age 14...52 years. I just instinctively know where to hit on the rail. On an American pool table I still never look at the diamonds or dots.
There are two Shots I always play relatively quickly with little thought. Kicks off a rail and Long 12 foot table length shots. I find it’s like throwing a baseball back and forth...over thinking just clutters the mind.
Like you, snooker was my main billiard game as a teen, and I ran a lot of balls on accuracy and instinct.
My education started when I was told I could shorten an angle by kicking with draw...and when I found out why the black spot is 12.75 inches from the top rail.
why is it spotted there
pm me if you wish
No secrets here...that’s the value of AZ.
The black spot of snooker is also the red spot of English Billiards. It’s location was determined by the half-ball in-off angle from the side or top corner pocket. It’s a visual thing, not degrees...if you moved the cue right to the black, you’d be blocking out half the ball..roughly (they’d have to be cubes to be exact)
You learn to recognize this angle all over the table, so you know where whitey is going if hit above center...also how spin and speed can make that angle vary.
A snooker table grew from an English Billiard table, they just opened the pockets by a quarter inch.
Once you understand a diamond system (any of them) and understand how to perform the calculations (in your head), you can perform the same calculations on any table with or without diamonds. Diamonds just make it easier.
Secondarily, there is a reason diamonds are placed where they are placed back from the nose of the rail--on a 10 foot table if you roll directly at the diamond and the CB hits the rail with natural roll (no side spin and no top/draw) the ball will come off the rail and arc-forward by its natural roll immediately before contact, and the placement of the diamond makes up for that arcing forward. Shorter tables (9-8-7-6.5-6) all play progressively longer because the ball has less table distance after arcing forward to get back on the diamond line.
But any side/top/bottom dramatically alters the course after impact.
Secondarily, there is a reason diamonds are placed where they are placed back from the nose of the rail--on a 10 foot table if you roll directly at the diamond and the CB hits the rail with natural roll (no side spin and no top/draw) the ball will come off the rail and arc-forward by its natural roll immediately before contact, and the placement of the diamond makes up for that arcing forward. Shorter tables (9-8-7-6.5-6) all play progressively longer because the ball has less table distance after arcing forward to get back on the diamond line.
But any side/top/bottom dramatically alters the course after impact.
thanks for the reply pt109.....
Yes, Willie Hoppe neither developed nor used the standard diamond systems. Nor did he write "his" book, "Billiards As It Should Be Played", which was written by Byron Schoeman. The corner-five diagrams in that book are essentially taken from the "Cannefax Charts" which were published in 1931 and are available here: http://www.sfbilliards.com/Misc/Cannefax.pdf They give a very rough idea of where the cue ball is going. Robert Byrne discusses extensions, corrections and problems with the system in his "Standard" book.
Hoppe knew all the angles because he was supporting his family -- father, mother and brother -- by the time he was 12 years old. It was said that his father would beat him when he missed. Strong incentive indeed.
Raymond Ceulemans, who has published a diamond system book, has said that he won his first (several?) world championships at 3C without knowing systems.