Do tighter pockets favor the shotmaker?

[lfigueroa]

Well you seem to know and you sure do have the talking part down . Let’s see you play some on 4” pockets ! Let’s see it

I've played at a couple of rooms that had a table set up with itty-bitty pockets for 1pocket -- I even won a tournament at one of them.

And the thing was that it wasn't my shot making or moving that led me to success, it was my ability to adapt my strategy to the unforgiving pockets. Really small pockets require a different strategy for most mortals.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Poolplaya9]

Another example is my table at home. For whatever reason the corners will kick the OB out if you put extreme draw and hit hard (not overpowering it, just a good solid hit), people come over and play and it'll kick one out and they get that look on their face and I just chuckle and say "You'll have to go play on the diamonds to make those shots"

Extreme draw on the cue ball is not what is making the pocket kick out balls as it doesn't do anything but at most start the object ball with natural roll. Almost certainly what is happening is that you are hitting draw shots firmer than you realize which is actually very common. It is not unlike the people that say you get more draw when you "snap your wrist" and other such nonsense when what is actually happening is that they are just hitting the ball harder than they realize (and/or lower than they thought) in the process and the snapping the wrist isn't some magical thing that makes balls react different than any other stroke type.

 

[Poolplaya9]

If our shotmaker is used to making 90% of his shots and he's hitting 80% [on the tighter table], he may get rattled. But our position player went from 80% to 60%.

But did the position player actually go from 80% to 60% pocketing success rate on the tighter table as you suggest is a given? Let me illustrate what I mean with an example. Because the position player is very adept at his position play, maybe he averages 2 foot shots, and that isn't going to change much when the pockets get tightened up and he is still going to be playing the same tight position and shooting mostly 2 foot shots like always. Tightening up the pockets isn't going to make him miss too many more of those 2 foot shots because they are only two foot shots, so the position player's shooting success percentage may not actually go down very much at all but the shot maker's pocketing success rate is certainly going to plummet as the pockets get tightened.

What will actually end up being the case for any given set of players could very well just depend on just how good each of the players is at their strengths and just how bad they each are at their weaknesses (on both an objective and relative basis) and the matter of degrees for each for any particular set of players could be what is going to determine exactly how things shake out. With one set of two players it could be that the tightened pockets do in fact serve to give advantage to the better shot maker, and with the next set of two players it could be that it serves to give advantage to the better position player.

Just how much you tighten the pockets will be another factor. It could also be that if you tighten them X amount it gives advantage to the better shot maker, but if you tighten them Y amount is gives advantage to the better position player.

 

[westcoast]

It has to improve your shot making to an extent- with repetition comes procedural (muscle) memory. If you play on tight pockets on a regular basis you have to focus more and improve your mechanics to make balls. This is bound for transfer over to more forgiving tables.

 

[chefjeff]

When it is no longer fun, the pockets are too small.


Jeff Livingston

 

[Chili Palmer]

Extreme draw on the cue ball is not what is making the pocket kick out balls as it doesn't do anything but at most start the object ball with natural roll. Almost certainly what is happening is that you are hitting draw shots firmer than you realize which is actually very common. It is not unlike the people that say you get more draw when you "snap your wrist" and other such nonsense when what is actually happening is that they are just hitting the ball harder than they realize (and/or lower than they thought) in the process and the snapping the wrist isn't some magical thing that makes balls react different than any other stroke type.

LOL, sure, because you've played on my table and know. Funny, I can shoot the same shot at the same speed with both force follow and force draw - with follow the OB stays in the pocket, draw kicks it out. You'll just have to trust me on this one. I'm no SVB but I guarantee I understand the physics of pool and I most definitely understand the quirks of my own table

Bygone's...

 

[Tennessee-Mike]

Only your draw stroke causes ball to bounce out of the pocket - Why? A pool shot happens in 3 dimensions, not just 2. The draw stroke and follow stroke will have slightly different bounce aspects on both balls. The OB hit with a sharp draw stroke may be getting a bit of bounce from the collision, and when / as / if it lands just a bit on the edge of the shelf, could be just enough to let it then bounce toward and off the back of the pocket. The draw stroke (only) kick out is likely due to a bounce effect since a draw stroke is more downward. Also, the ball doesn’t spin out of that pocket, it bounces

 

[lfigueroa]

Only your draw stroke causes ball to bounce out of the pocket - Why? A pool shot happens in 3 dimensions, not just 2. The draw stroke and follow stroke will have slightly different bounce aspects on both balls. The OB hit with a sharp draw stroke may be getting a bit of bounce from the collision, and when / as / if it lands just a bit on the edge of the shelf, could be just enough to let it then bounce toward and off the back of the pocket. The draw stroke (only) kick out is likely due to a bounce effect since a draw stroke is more downward. Also, the ball doesn’t spin out of that pocket, it bounces

oh man, you are going to have the science guys *all* over you with this one, lol.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Chili Palmer]

Only your draw stroke causes ball to bounce out of the pocket - Why? A pool shot happens in 3 dimensions, not just 2. The draw stroke and follow stroke will have slightly different bounce aspects on both balls. The OB hit with a sharp draw stroke may be getting a bit of bounce from the collision, and when / as / if it lands just a bit on the edge of the shelf, could be just enough to let it then bounce toward and off the back of the pocket. The draw stroke (only) kick out is likely due to a bounce effect since a draw stroke is more downward. Also, the ball doesn’t spin out of that pocket, it bounces

Although I can't disagree with the bounce theory, this happens on longer shots also where the ball would have time to settle down. I'm pretty confident it has something to do with the pocket linings I installed (I'm no RKC) and dirty cloth. Something makes them bounce funny once they're in the pocket and the spin throws it out?

Not sure, I just know it's relevant to this thread because I most definitely shoot certain shots different when I have certain leaves.

 

[suyh]

I got interested in this thread due to the title. IMHO, the tight pockets help during practicing and when you get on a table with larger pockets. Does that favor the shot makers, not so much.
My own experience is that I have a 7' table setup with 4" pockets, 4-5/8" for the sides, for practicing. When I go play in a league with 4.5" diamond table, I do find the shots got easier. However, the difficult shots remain low percentage for me.
Here is the kick, when I get back to my practice table, I still miss those shots that I regularly missed. Keep in mind that I'm a mediocre player at best.
My point is that a good shot maker will go through the center of the pocket more often and whether or not the shooter will have shape for the next shot depends on the cue ball control. The ability to shoot through center of the pocket helps but does not give a player advantage all the time.

 

[hang-the-9]

Are there stats on how many games were lost or % of mistakes are due to missing the ball you are in more or less in line for or from some other mistake like poor position, self hook, etc...? That would show if just basic pocketing can overcome other factors. I think just by looking at how the snooker players do vs pool players is a good stat, they do OK but not great, just due to pocketing ability not so much position or strategy in the game of pool.

 

[cjl0s]

I love playing on my 5x10 snooker table with 4 inch rounded pockets but honestly it probably has no or even negative impact on playing on a bar table. My ability to pocket a long straight shot has improved but I struggle with position play when I play league. Twice the area gives you twice the shape zone or more. Some shots that routinely come up in pool like a long rail cut are very hard to hit consistently. Cheating a pocket is very minimal. The smaller balls throw more with any side forcing you to play mostly center ball.. Lots of things. It changes your mindset where you need to remember that certain impossible shots are now possible. I usually have to come in early to get dialed in to counteract some of this. I would not change anything though even though my wife came home once to find a valley table in the dining room. That didn't last long LOL.

 

[Chili Palmer]

Are there stats on how many games were lost or % of mistakes are due to missing the ball you are in more or less in line for or from some other mistake like poor position, self hook, etc...? That would show if just basic pocketing can overcome other factors. I think just by looking at how the snooker players do vs pool players is a good stat, they do OK but not great, just due to pocketing ability not so much position or strategy in the game of pool.

At-large may have some stats somewhere, I believe I saw him post up some miss rates, or something to that affect, but not sure if it would help in this situation.

A long time ago I made a post about tracking top players make/miss percentages based on shot pocket, shot angle, distance to pocket, distance from CB to OB, etc. in attempt at fine tuning, to a ridiculous level, a players rating. Clearly, it would need to be a very robust AI system but I think it would be pretty cool - unless you're the guy who knows he's going to lose

 

[cjl0s]

I would also add that a person that consistently beats me on a bar table would probably beat me on my table after getting acclimated. The better player is the better player in all conditions in no time.

 

[Gatz]

When I first got a table in my basement the pockets were just shy of 4.25. At first I was loving it, thought I was god. Once the cloth started to wear in, the table became torture. I was cutting balls down the rail that would go in on every table we locally have in a pool room. I couldn't cheat the pocket much either. The game became frustrating and not fun at all. I didn't want to practice on it anymore which intern hurt my game.

I reclothed the table, opened the pockets back to normal size. I now practice way more on my table and enjoy it 10x more and I'm actually improving because I'm enjoying my focused practice a lot more instead of getting frustrated because I keep bobbling balls.

Tight pockets should be for the elite players playing at the highest level of tournament play. But, don't take away from the flexibility of being able to cheat a pocket. This isn't snooker lol.

 

[MmmSharp]

When it is no longer fun, the pockets are too small.


Jeff Livingston

Or your thighs are too big.

 

[Chili Palmer]

When I first got a table in my basement the pockets were just shy of 4.25. At first I was loving it, thought I was god. Once the cloth started to wear in, the table became torture. I was cutting balls down the rail that would go in on every table we locally have in a pool room. I couldn't cheat the pocket much either. The game became frustrating and not fun at all. I didn't want to practice on it anymore which intern hurt my game.

I reclothed the table, opened the pockets back to normal size. I now practice way more on my table and enjoy it 10x more and I'm actually improving because I'm enjoying my focused practice a lot more instead of getting frustrated because I keep bobbling balls.

Tight pockets should be for the elite players playing at the highest level of tournament play. But, don't take away from the flexibility of being able to cheat a pocket. This isn't snooker lol.

I'm pretty sure the condition of my cloth has a lot to do with kicking balls out of the corners. Luckily, my pockets aren't that small and overall the table plays pretty well and is enjoyable.

 

[bbb]

i extended the rails on my gold crown 1
corner pockets 4.25 inch
i feel comfortable playing on my table
and feel the demand for more accuracy has made me a better player
and i feel even more comfortable on most tables in the pool rooms i go to

 

[LG9BallFan]

I think tighter pockets favor the player who can shoot straighter. Say you are playing a friend who can shoot straighter than you. Do you think you have a better chance of winning on a tight pocket table or a table with larger pockets? I play snooker once in a while and where I play we have Crowns and Diamond pool tables. When I move from small pocket tables, snooker or Diamonds, to large pocket tables, Crowns I miss far less often and pocketing balls seems easy (until I get acclimated again to the larger pockets). JMHO

 

[Guy Manges]

Seems to take a lot of common since for all...