Do you call these on C players?

D

dingle

Registered
Scenario:

I'm playing a C-D player who does not know that shooting through a ball too close will result in the double hit of the cueball (we've all seen this before). He has ball in hand after my break (and scratch) with the one in the open and the nine right on the corner.

He lines up the cue ball about 2 inches behind the one. Because he's not within a chalk's width, I decide that I don't need a referee. Big mistake, as he clearly pushes through and the cue ball follows with enough speed to go length of the table several times. He does make the nine.

I called foul and after several minutes of myself and a couple of other better players explaining the rule, he agrees to re-rack, but not to give me ball in hand because I never called a referee to watch the initial shot.

I go on to win the re-rack with a 2-9 combo (Yes, I'm sleaze).

Another bit of background, I'm currently in first place in nine ball with 4 weeks remaining in the season and several players right on my heels.

Here's my question finally, what was the right thing to do?
 
You were wrong

Sorry Dude, but you were totally wrong. In the event you choose not to call over the referee, you ceded the call to the shooter. If he said it is good, then it is good. Apparently you got the favorable call because you are probably the top dog in the league and you could whine a little more loudly. Unless you kick some butt and pull away from the other league players, I'd say your win is a little tainted. Me suspects you already know that, otherwise you wouldn't have come here to get validation.

Bob(a former room owner)
 
doitforthegame said:
Sorry Dude, but you were totally wrong. In the event you choose not to call over the referee, you ceded the call to the shooter.
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Since when the shooter may call his own shots ? At least not where I play...

The opponent is the referee while the other player is shooting. If there is a disagreement, the TD should be called. But, in this case the player made a clear foul and the other player should've had a ball in hand. If he didn't know the rule, it doesn't matter, he should follow the rules anyway. Ignorance is no excuse for getting away with fouls. By disagreeing, he made an ass of himself and was lucky to have an opponent who didn't demand justice.

With clear situations you don't need a referee. The player making a foul shot should admit being wrong and not demanding any special rights just because there wasn't a referee watching. If the situation is really unclear and both players admit that, then no foul is called. Calling a foul needs a sound proof of the foul. For instance, when hitting two different balls almost simultaneously, you can tell which ball the cueball hit first just by watching which direction the cueball takes after the contacts.
 
doitforthegame said:
Sorry Dude, but you were totally wrong. In the event you choose not to call over the referee, you ceded the call to the shooter. If he said it is good, then it is good.
Click to expand...

I couldn't have said it any better. Exactly right!

By the way, when the match ended, I would have explained the rule to my opponent in the most polite way possible.
 
Probably should have called a ref but it is up to every player to know the basic rules. Usually we don't call a ref for what we know is an obvious foul, plus we think the other player knows this as well. Especially at two inches, you can drive a truck through there.

What if a B player did the same and said no foul LOL? All players have to learn to take responsibility for their actions. After several people explained why, he still did not give in completely. You can only claim ignorance of the rules, or hang on to an excuse to a point.

No big deal

Rod
 
around here we don't have ref's. On an obivous situation its always nice to get someone impartial over to make a call. (td, other player that isn't friends with either player and is respected..etc)

Mostly the players will call the fouls on each other, unless its a bigger event 50+ players then there is just the td who often is also a player.
 
dingle said:
Scenario:

I'm playing a C-D player who does not know that shooting through a ball too close will result in the double hit of the cueball (we've all seen this before). He has ball in hand after my break (and scratch) with the one in the open and the nine right on the corner.

He lines up the cue ball about 2 inches behind the one. Because he's not within a chalk's width, I decide that I don't need a referee. Big mistake, as he clearly pushes through and the cue ball follows with enough speed to go length of the table several times. He does make the nine.

I called foul and after several minutes of myself and a couple of other better players explaining the rule, he agrees to re-rack, but not to give me ball in hand because I never called a referee to watch the initial shot.

I go on to win the re-rack with a 2-9 combo (Yes, I'm sleaze).

Another bit of background, I'm currently in first place in nine ball with 4 weeks remaining in the season and several players right on my heels.

Here's my question finally, what was the right thing to do?
Click to expand...

this happens ALOT. whenever i see it, i don't call it. i just explain to the player that it is a foul and why. then after that, if i see them lining it up again, i'll warn them before they shoot, so they don't do it. then after that, they're on their own as they are now educated. i will call a foul after that.

side note: 9 times out of 10 if the person doesn't know thats a foul, then i don't think you have to worry about calling any fouls on them as they probably won't stand a chance at beating you.

thanks
 
mjantti said:
Since when the shooter may call his own shots ? At least not where I play...
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The general rule here in the states is that if no official (or independent observer) was called in before the shot the call goes to the shooter. This guy could have been a real jerk and insisted he continue shooting, but once the situation was explained to him he agreed on a compromise.
 
What I don't understand is that you say he might be a C player. If that is the case I find it hard to believe he doesn't understand that rule.

Then of course you learned that in the future you will point this out before he, or anyone else, shoots a shot like this. He may be an APA player where they overlook that type of shot and do not call it a foul.

What type of tournament/league was this? If a league check with the LO for clarification.

And normally if there is a dispute after a shot on whether it was a good hit then it goes to the shooter. If the shot is questionable you should get a 3rd party to watch it and then both parties will have to abide by his/her decision.

Jake
 
It doesn't matter if you were playing a D or pro, any questionable call on a shot always goes to the shooter if there's no ref. As the "better" player who knows the rules, you should have known that and kept your mouth shut. Once the match was over, explain the shot to him and explain why it was a foul. Since he allowed for a rerack, it shows to me that he wants to learn. Unfortunately, he got screwed, not you.

I'm wondering why you called it after the shot. If you saw him set it up and knew it was going to be a foul, you should have immediately called a ref over. That was your mistake. If someone's setting up the shot, either they don't know it's a foul or they're trying to get away with something.
 
catscradle said:
The general rule here in the states is that if no official (or independent observer) was called in before the shot the call goes to the shooter.
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Umm, IMO that's a bullsh*t rule. I could cheat in any shot no matter what, if there wouldn't be an official to watch the shot. I would say: "I'm the shooter, I can decide." If I'd scratch in the corner, I'd pick up the cueball, place it anywhere and say "I didn't scratch, I can decide because I'm the shooter. Your eyes are deceiving you..." :D
 
mjantti said:
Umm, IMO that's a bullsh*t rule. I could cheat in any shot no matter what, if there wouldn't be an official to watch the shot. I would say: "I'm the shooter, I can decide." If I'd scratch in the corner, I'd pick up the cueball, place it anywhere and say "I didn't scratch, I can decide because I'm the shooter. Your eyes are deceiving you..." :D
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Around here, the call goes to the shooter with no ref present. Another reason to pay attention to the game at hand, and call someone over to watch the hit if its questionable.
 
Perk said:
Around here, the call goes to the shooter with no ref present. Another reason to pay attention to the game at hand, and call someone over to watch the hit if its questionable.
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Ok.

Here in Europe, the opponent is the referee. That's why non-shooting player is always paying attention to the game. If the opponent calls a foul, you don't have to agree, but then a tournament official is to be called to the situation, the shooter cannot just overrule the opponent's call. But, if a foul cannot be confirmed, the advantage goes for the shooter. The same idea is used in many sports. Like in baseball, if the ball and the runner arrive at the base exactly the same time, the advantage goes for the runner...

But, with A class players, there is rarely any disagreements. Only problems I've faced had to do with the tournament director not knowing the correct rules. Also, a couple of times there has been some questions of a hit and sometimes about the racking.

I have called many fould on myself. I think being honest is the best thing to do...
 
In the tournaments which I've been a part of the call goes to the shooter unless a referee is present to make the judgement.

For everyday play it's a subject that is seldom addressed but should be carefully laid out if it's a gambling situation. Otherwize he with the biggest pistol rules. :)
 
I have played in many leagues and been in many a pool room over the years. This is the first I have heard about the call going to the shooter. If I were playing someone for the cash and my opponent and I had a dispute over a hit and he through out "The call goes to the shooter", the matter just would not be settled at that point. Are you guys discussing some kind of APA or BCA rule?
 
I have a friend that uses the "glove compartment" rule. This is when you accidently move a ball (ala Earl) and the opponent has the option of moving it to where he wants it. My friend says that he's going to move it out to his car to the glove compartment and let him, the opponent, make it from there! lol...he's never done it, but according to the "rules," he could.

Wasn't it Goebble (sp) who said something about the impossiblity of covering everthing in the rules?...which leaves us with using common sense and honesty some of the time. The horror!...the horror!

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
I have a friend that uses the "glove compartment" rule. This is when you accidently move a ball (ala Earl) and the opponent has the option of moving it to where he wants it. My friend says that he's going to move it out to his car to the glove compartment and let him, the opponent, make it from there! lol...he's never done it, but according to the "rules," he could.

Wasn't it Goebble (sp) who said something about the impossiblity of covering everthing in the rules?...which leaves us with using common sense and honesty some of the time. The horror!...the horror!

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...

but i do believe if its the apa, they have a rule that says balls that leave the playing surface stay down........ ;)
 
mjantti said:
Umm, IMO that's a bullsh*t rule. I could cheat in any shot no matter what, if there wouldn't be an official to watch the shot. I would say: "I'm the shooter, I can decide." If I'd scratch in the corner, I'd pick up the cueball, place it anywhere and say "I didn't scratch, I can decide because I'm the shooter. Your eyes are deceiving you..." :D
Click to expand...

Of course after that you might find it difficult to get another game and you might have to make an emergency trip to the dentist.
 
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