Do you favor a Pool Handicap, or Rating System?

[SouprFive]

I have recently just started playing small bar 9 ball tournaments, and quite frankly am getting discouraged as I feel all I am doing is contributing to a prize fund that the same people always seem to win every week. These tournaments are double elimination, with race to 4 or 5 mostly.

I sure would like to see some type of handicapping system that would give players with lessor ability a little weight so that they too could have a chance to maybe win, or place in the tournament money.

 

[Tiger5150]

Join the APA they really favor the weaker player

 

[bnall]

I have recently just started playing small bar 9 ball tournaments, and quite frankly am getting discouraged as I feel all I am doing is contributing to a prize fund that the same people always seem to win every week. These tournaments are double elimination, with race to 4 or 5 mostly.

I sure would like to see some type of handicapping system that would give players with lessor ability a little weight so that they too could have a chance to maybe win, or place in the tournament money.

Keep on playing in the tournament. Stronger players will only make yourself a better player.

 

[seymore15074]

I have recently just started playing small bar 9 ball tournaments, and quite frankly am getting discouraged as I feel all I am doing is contributing to a prize fund that the same people always seem to win every week. These tournaments are double elimination, with race to 4 or 5 mostly.

I sure would like to see some type of handicapping system that would give players with lessor ability a little weight so that they too could have a chance to maybe win, or place in the tournament money.

Thoes same people that seem to win every week are the same people who once lost every week. Stick with it, but if you're really being drilled you may want to save the entry fee for a while, you may not be ready--I say it all of the time, new players always want to jump into a gun fight with a knife...

 

[PoolSponge]

If you feel you are donating how do you think a strong player feels when they enter a tournament and find themselves spotting 5 on 9 in 9 ball to a player who is poorly handicapped and loses?

Play straight up. Take the beats. Get better faster.

You may make more money in a handicapped event but guaranteed after you win someone will ask about the tourney and you will have to tell them about the spot involved and your credit for winning will drop, especially if the spot is even a little higher than it should be.

I play pro events in the area all the time. I used to go out in two. The last one I played I finished 5-6 on a fluke loss on the hill to make the final four. I also won a straight up AAA (twice). The pro event was MUCH more rewarding even though I made less money and didn't take the title. I am a better player for it.

If you like making money then just think what playing in the straight up events does to elevate your game and take that to the money table. You can get your spot there and make good money.

 

[Williebetmore]

In Europe, they have the PAT system of pool proficiency training, evaluation, and grading levels. It is a tremendous system - though English-speaking students will be befuddled by the cryptic translation from the original German, and by the profusion of poorly labelled tables and diagrams. If you could figure out what they are trying to say in the manuals, you would DEFINITELY progress; and their assessment of your level of play would be dead accurate.

I am working on my own English translation of the original German; but I can't re-do the diagrams (limited by the capability of Wei's otherwise fabulous cuetable program). I guess I'll have to draw the diagrams by hand.

 

[vinmaps]

C'mon

Listen to all these guys saying "take the beats", etc... THERE IS NO REASON FOR YOU TO PAY TO PLAY GUYS THAT ARE WORLDS BETTER THAN YOU! Of course, you develop a handicap system. Handicap systems are what gets average Joes into the pool room in the first place. Say what you will about handicap systems, but IT IS THE WAY TO GO. This ain't the 60's people, there's no mandatory degree from the School of Hard Knocks anymore.

Why is it that in bowling and golf there is no stigma around the whole handicapping issue, but in pool you're some kind of (explitive) if you require a handicap in order to compete.

Anyway, visit my link below and I'll set you up with a system that works for your pool scene. You'd be surprised at how easy it is to develop an accurate system with ABSOLUTELY NO SCOREKEEPING.

"I came to play pool, not watch two guys struggle through an hour-long match and be forced to take notes on it!"

fg

 

[JoeW]

Seems to me there are two kinds of tournaments. Heads up pro and handicapped. I will not play in a handicapped tournament with a pro because I am just donating to him or her.

When you handicap me against a pro I have to play my best game while he plays his usual game and I have the added pressure of the audience that he is used to. It is as simple as that. I have some idea about my speed at the best of times so why donate to the cause. I can learn just as much – or more – by paying the spectator fee.

In the handicapped tournaments, if the same two or three people win every week and they are not made to sit out for some later tournament for the “big bucks,” I stop participating. So the player is not a touring pro, I am also not stupid and see no point in donating to some shortstop’s cause.

I have buddies who play better than I do and I learn a lot from them for the price of table time at my house. Why blow the money on some shortstop? I will watch thank you.

If there is a handicapped tournament where we are reasonably rated and there are no pros or shortstops, it is fun to get involved. Not for the money, though it is nice and I even have a freeze frame rack signed by Jim Rempe based on such a win. So there are times I play and times I watch.

Unfortunately there are people with a gambling addiction and they just have to pay to lose. And there are people willing to take their money. On some occasions I have felt embarrassed for the loser and just left the building. Of course I also learned a lot about the guy willing to take the addict’s money.

Just the average Joe’s thoughts on the subject.

 

[FLICKit]

I have recently just started playing small bar 9 ball tournaments, and quite frankly am getting discouraged as I feel all I am doing is contributing to a prize fund that the same people always seem to win every week. These tournaments are double elimination, with race to 4 or 5 mostly.

I sure would like to see some type of handicapping system that would give players with lessor ability a little weight so that they too could have a chance to maybe win, or place in the tournament money.

I understand the frustration that you relay regarding playing in open tournaments. There are definitely two extremes that are often relayed in these types of discussions.

1. Open tournaments are essentially pre-determined with the same select players winning a pre-dominant share. Too often, can tell before the tournament starts the 10% of people most likely to excel to the top, and the other 10% of people who will be eliminated very quickly. With of course the caveat that you may be able to learn from playing those better players. But, often there is such a big gap between two players, that they won't be able to even recognize many of advanced player's techniques, and even moreso won't be able to implement them in any reasonable fashion. Although the game of pool is very simple in concept, implementation of those concepts, as we all know, requires a dedicated learning curve.
2. Handicapped tournaments can be used to create better competition challenges, but are subject to sandbagging claims (often more exaggerated than actual). Nonetheless, a rating system is vital to have as accurate of rating as possible.

Here, there is an Arizona rating system (oftem misrepresented as a BCA system) that is often used for many tournaments. Other areas have other similar style systems (i.e. A, B, C, D, ...). These have proven very successful at allowing people equalized opportunities to compete, while simultaneously rewarding players as they climb through the learning curve.

The biggest problems with current handicapped systems is that many aren't accurate enough, and thus indirectly encourage a level of sandbagging. Or, others are so subjective that there isn't any true standards. Just some nebulous order, which a TD will claim to have a standard, but can't be readily relayed or passed on to someone else. Too easy for politics to be involved.

The challenge to a good rating system is to find the right balance. The ability to take the best of both worlds...

 

[JoeW]

At the hall where I play most often the room owner starts all “new” players out at what would be a “C.” Based on wins and losses he raises or lowers handicaps. The guy is well respected and very fair to everyone. He is also one of the best players. The system works well and I play often – and lose often. However, I always feel like I have an opportunity to win against some reasonably strong players. I haven’t won yet but I have been back to play in many tournaments.

He has no trouble telling the shortstops that they can’t play in the weekly but are invited to the semi-annual which pays a good deal. Everybody wins in this scenario.

 

[stick8]

rated tourny

I have recently just started playing small bar 9 ball tournaments, and quite frankly am getting discouraged as I feel all I am doing is contributing to a prize fund that the same people always seem to win every week. These tournaments are double elimination, with race to 4 or 5 mostly.

I sure would like to see some type of handicapping system that would give players with lessor ability a little weight so that they too could have a chance to maybe win, or place in the tournament money.

I have been running rated tourny for 9yr and it does real good, you will always have a few that mone about their rating, but i say if it was not fair it would not lasted this long. wed-sun have 16-26 on wed 25-32 on sun. diffrent winners most every tourny. STICK

 

[CreeDo]

I've heard people say 'playing those who are better than you will improve your game'. In this case I think it's bad advice.

If your goal is to win money, and the opposition is much stronger, then the tournament is a bad investment, like putting 50 bucks on drawing a particular card from a shuffled deck. If your goal isn't money, but to learn from better players, it's still a bad investment. Save 50-150 bucks worth of entry fees and get one or two lessons with a reputable instructor. At least find one of these pros outside of a tournament, and preferably outside of the bar, and see if they'll teach you (you'd be surprised at how many like to teach, because it's kind of an ego stroker).

In a tournament, the fact that the other guy is shooting well won't "rub off" and magically improve your skill while you're sitting down. You might learn something while watching him but you don't need to pay an entry fee to do that. You might learn something if he's willing to teach you during the match but most players won't do that in a tournament.

People will argue that if you play in tournaments and know the other guys are killers, you'll really bear down and try harder to make your shots or lock them up with a safe. You'll learn to play under pressure, is the theory. I think that a player will pretty much automatically put a lot of effort into his shots just because it's a tournament and there's money. I also think he won't learn very effectively because pressure interferes with the learning process, it doesn't enhance it. You'll be less willing to try new things that you're unfamiliar with in a pressure situation, and usually that's exactly the stuff you need to work on to improve.

 

[Williebetmore]

Unfortunately there are people ...(that) just have to pay to lose. And there are people willing to take their money. On some occasions I have felt embarrassed for the loser and just left the building.

Joe,
Many thanks for not mentioning my name in this paragraph....very polite of you.

 

[Snapshot9]

I agree

with Flickit mostly, it has to be a combination of both, handicapped and open tournaments. Handicapped for the participation and learning it provides, and the opens for the competition and testing it provides.

I do not, although, believe in handicap systems that put someone above their skill level, or continue to raise people indefinately without a maximum established on an individual basis. Handicap systems that do this usually end up running off the best players, who are lifer players and promoters of the sport, and who many spectators will show up to watch shoot (which gives the room more business and income).

Lessor players enter mostly for the fun of it, while better players have
fun when they place in the money. If the better players can not get in the money, they will go where they can.

Why should someone that hasn't achieved what I have in Pool be rewarded before me? We both have the same type of brain, we both have the same type of opportunity for Pool. Whining about not being as good isn't going to cut it with me. Wanting to win without the skill to do so is just to feed your ego, nothing more. You aren't entitled to win just because you want to, you have to earn it. Nothing's free in this life, not even in Pool.

Better players will just tell you, "If you can't run with the Big Dogs, get off the Porch" which translates to you are in over your head, go find a smaller stage.

There needs to be a good balance of both types of tournaments. As a player gains confidence in playing in handicap tournaments, it motivates them to enter into open tournaments.

And as for your state wide Handicap system in Arizona, I know one very good player that moved to Oklahoma City from Phoenix because of it, Donnie Brown (who is from Wichita originally).

 

[JoeW]

Glad that was a joke Willie. I would have played in the Maryland tournament for the "seasoning," but that is a different deal. While I did not see your match, as we were caring for our daughter, from what I have heard I would not have faired well against you.

I think that 14.1 tournament was a pro tournament and it was never advertised as anything but a "qualifier" for pros or those who think they play like pros. I too have delusions of grandeur and would have been standing right there next to you for that one.

On the other hand, about your sharking ...

 

[skins]

handicaps are not needed. you'll only get better by playing better players and knowing you have to play you best to eventually have a chance to beat them. that's what tourneys are for. besides tournament play is not for everyone. if you want play with the big boys then "pay" your dues and if you want to play with a handicap join a bar league. of course there's allot of "sandbaggers" there as well so even there you really don't know the actual skill level of your competition. playin' without a handicap also weeds out the serious player from the "why can't i have a chance to win" player. ya' know the ones that are weekend bangers that don't put the time in necessary to bring their game to a level that would warrant some success. the only handicap system i favor is one agreed upon between two players playin for a stake.

 

[FLICKit]

(I agree) with Flickit mostly, it has to be a combination of both, handicapped and open tournaments. Handicapped for the participation and learning it provides, and the opens for the competition and testing it provides.
...
There needs to be a good balance of both types of tournaments. As a player gains confidence in playing in handicap tournaments, it motivates them to enter into open tournaments.

And as for your state wide Handicap system in Arizona, I know one very good player that moved to Oklahoma City from Phoenix because of it, Donnie Brown (who is from Wichita originally).

Back at ya Snapshot, I agree with most of what you say as well.

Even regarding the state wide system... Without likely needing the exact details or testamonials for what you mentioned. That's why I stated that "nonetheless, a rating system is vital to have as accurate of rating as possible." In general, it works pretty well. The system has its strengths and its weaknesses as well. That's why I think a better system / enhancements would be useful for improving pool overall.


In reference to other posts: I've also played against many players in open or non-handicapped tournaments who are at such a disadvantage that it's not even enjoyable to play. It often feels detrimental to my game, because it reduces the need to apply that intense focus. This slight letdown can be highly detrimental when later playing against strong opponents, where even the slightest bit can be all of the difference. Or the frustration of letting down for a seemingly weak player, only to have them jump up and surprise you with a sudden run-out.