Do you know what happens to your cue inside your case?

[Chopdoc]

Nice video.

It's pretty obvious how cues rattle around with little or nothing between them but a video like that drives the point home.

I noticed the case with tubes in it had some pretty monster size tubes in it. Really too large.

I picked up a Bentley 3x6 at the flea market for $50 a while back. It was in as new condition, only shelf wear. Tags still on it and keys still attached. Quite a deal. JB, I believe you saw that one on Skype.

It has tubes in it. The tubes actually hug the cues, the cues don't move. In fact putting a cue in and out meets with a little resistance. The shafts and butts are "hugged" in there. At first I felt they were too tight, but it was only because I wasn't used to a case that held cues so snugly. Because they are tubes I can't put any fat butt cues in there (like some of my antiques) but I generally wouldn't anyway.

It isn't the greatest case by any means. Clearly "cheap" with very cheap pigskin burgundy finished leather on it. But I like the case and it is serving well. I know that the seams will not hold up. When it finally gives up I will use the core of it to build a case with my own saddle stitched leather.

Anyway, very nice illustration of the advantages of some attention to liner construction.



Incidentally, my better box cases, and the one that I made, do not allow cue movement nor contact between butts and shafts etc, ever. Of course, they aren't as pretty as the tooled leather cases either.


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[Chopdoc]

I also wanted to mention that sound would be cool.

The sound of cues rattling around would be very dramatic.

 

[XPLAYHARDX]

Wow unbelieveable

Hi John
First of all it was great to see you again and also thanks for bringing the Mason case. I have been carrying a cue case for over 35 years and have never had a tip pop off well being in a case but I think you jinxed me John as after watching the video and seeing the cues bumping around and a tip popping off I was shocked. Now for the rest of the story which has a really good twist....... that being I picked up a highend Mottey that I have been eyeing for the last couple years. Now for the sad partof my story I dropped my case with the Mottey in it when unloading my buddies stuff out of the back of my 4runner and when I got to my house and pulled out my Mottey guess what the unplayed shaft is missing its tip which I find in the bottom of the case. so John like I said I think you jinxed me.....moral of the story is I'll use my other so called highend cases for home storage and stick with my Barton cases with the Barton interiors for taking my cues out and about.
Again John thanks for the great cases and keep up the goodwork.
also congrats on the newest member of your family......Jeff

 

[SloMoHolic]

I want to add my thoughts here.

First, in all of the fall-over shots, I just stood the cases up, close to vertical, and simply let them fall. I didn't shove these down. You can imagine how much worse it would be if your case fell off a table or bar, or if someone actually tripped and knocked it over.

Second, there were four major types of potentially damaging motions that I observed in these tests:
1. Cues slapping against the inside of the case liners
2. Cues vibrating or oscillating violently after impact
3. Cues sliding in or out of the case.
4. Cues rotating within the case liners or tubes

Watch closely, and you'll see all four types. JB's UltraPad eliminates three of the four, and drastically reduces the last one. I am sending all of the raw footage to JB for further review, and he already has some ideas that will make UltraPad even better.

Trivia: it took 25 takes to get the "Calamity" shot in its entirety. I later discovered that I had left about 100 little divots in the wood floor from the joint pins! Glad I'm just renting.

Honestly, I learned a LOT by shooting and editing these videos. Thanks to JB for giving me this opportunity to participate peripherally in his case design. (And the SBE, in a roundabout kind of way!)

I just made the video public on YouTube, so make sure to post and read the comments there, as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fo_qUXVcsQ

I'll tell you this: All of my cues have been in JB cases for the last ten+ years (even before I knew JB), and they will continue to live in a JB case as long as I play.

-Blake

 

[SloMoHolic]

I also wanted to mention that sound would be cool.

The sound of cues rattling around would be very dramatic.

Yes, that would have been awesome. I did start off recording audio, but there was so much background noise, it was hard to isolate the sound of the cues and cases. Next time, I will do the tests in a different environment, and i will DEFINITELY have "slow motion" audio to go along with the video.

 

[RRfireblade]

Cool video.

Who would have thought having padding is better than having no padding ?

Now we just need a video with and without rocks poured into the case on top of your cues.

I might be doing this all wrong.

:O

 

[JB Cases]

Cool video.

Who would have thought having padding is better than having no padding ?

Now we just need a video with and without rocks poured into the case on top of your cues.

I might be doing this all wrong.

:O

well in the past some have said that padding is a red herring.

 

[RRfireblade]

well in the past some have said that padding is a red herring.

I guess theres one born every minute.....and some of them have cash.

You know what would be cool maybe, if you could do a case out of plexy or acrylic so you can see everything inside.

 

[phade]

Love jb cases

I have a few cases and I have to say jb ,j flowers, gtf, jiasen, all of these protect my cues, and make me very happy. They all have the ultra padding. And I wouldn't use anything else.... Good job John ... Thanks again. Dom

 

[JB Cases]

JB,

this post is for you, if other chime in thats cool, but JB please read everything I wrote, it took me sometime to write this, i been fix'in to ask you this for a long time, tonight I had the time. thanks in advance, Eric:smile:

PS: I know yur busy wrapping up SBE and traveling so when you have the time, I sincerly appreciate it. its just a discussion of packing things for protection, maximum protection.


Tuffpak gun cases for air travel are the best ever

http://www.nalpak.com/Tuffpak-1050-Gun-Case-w-TSA-Locking-System


I know cues are not guns, please bear with me for a moment-Tuffpak's theory is if the guns are too loosely packed in their case(all they sell is a big tube, you have to pack it yourself, they suggest putting your cloths in with the gun(s) just snug enough that they is a little wiggle room, not ridged because the optics on the hunting rifles are sensitive to shock, so by having not to tight but not to loosely packed guns affords the best protection. The theory is the cloths wrapped around the guns causes them to decelerate slow enough to avoid harming optics & the guns. Conversely if the guns are packed to lose the guns slam around inside the case(big problems) and if they are packed to snuggly then its a ridged problem that can cause cracked stocks on the guns(assuming they are wood). I have seen one cracked stock on a large caliber hunting rifle that happened in a Tuffpak. The guy stuffed his whole kit in there because he wanted just one piece of luggage.


So the windup on the guns topic is , and I say this from 1st hand experience and also many friends on message boards that addd up to 100's of trips to africa so far no one i know has had a problem(except the stock being broken), I been there 10 or 11 times so call it 20 flights back and forth, I packed them snug but not jammed in tight.


Ok thats guns, i mention that because the theory of packing is a serious science, think Amazon aint spent millions on how to deliver what they sell so it arrives in one piece? I was in the mail order biz and damaged goods from shipping was a nightmare.

On to cues, I watched the video 2X and I believe the best protection for a cue in a case is leaning towards the ridged side, cues are not guns or optics. If they rattle around there is a huge problem as I have experienced first hand and if they are too rigid and the suitcase they are packed in is hammered by baggage handlers or dropped it seems to me some play or some small amount of tolerance's allowed for deceleration before the cue impacts the case is the best safest design for protecting cues. It effectively slows down the impact with the shell. Which I believe is why the shell should be padded some what too. A little goes a long way IMO. What say you?


JB whats your thoughts on decelerating the cues before impact versus a super rigid case that allows no travel for the cue(the shock waves would travel thru the cue if it was too ridged dont you think?. Seems to me that if they are packed too tight there could be stresses from the outer shell that would transfer right into the wood. I'm curious what your feelings are about this.

I'm not busting balls or judging anyone, i'm talking the physics and dynamics of dropping or mis handling cue cases. I think like Tuffpak says the answer is in the middle, not to tight, but certainly not loose as a goose. There has to be some room for the contents of the case to decelerate to afford maximum protection.

I know I asked lots of questions, and I do have a bit of experience, so I thought you and I talking about this would be good reading for others here. I know we dont know each other that well and I think that makes for a more candid discussion. I'm sure not looking for a beef, i'm learning and asking questions. Thanks in advance. (may have said that already, i edited the 4 times now to make it clear for you)

kindest regards,


Eric

I read it all and looked at your link. Nalpack also makes form fitted cases for guns as well as generic cases with egg-carton foam inside to hold the guns or other equipment securely.

I don't know enough about how energy transfers to know about whether a little wiggle room is better or whether direct contact with the insulating material is better.

All I know is that when I look around the web the best cases are tough on the outside and padded on the inside.

Watching this video over and over confirmed what I have always thought, the cues move a LOT in a small space and padding reduces that movement dramatically.

However looking at the video I was led to wonder if a harness/hammock/bunjee-like interior might not be even better. Basically I have started to think about how to hold the cues suspended in a harness would work and whether this would have any benefit.

In any case I am inspired to dig a little deeper into energy transfer and how impact might affect a cue. At the show I asked a several cuemakers what they preferred and to a man they all said they preferred for their cues to be kept in the safest possible environment possible. One told me that the bane of his existence is for a customer to come back to him with buzz and than he sincerely believes that when it happens it's because the cue was somehow smacked around.

I think we can both agree that in general guns are more durable than pool cues and so I don't see why pool cues should get any less protection. I very much doubt that if we were to put a thin nylon bag into a TuffPack with no other padding that any gun owner would dare transport their gun like that. But in fact that is what some cue case makers expect their customers to do every day.

 

[classiccues]

You better have Blake check your video again. At the 41 second mark during the ultra pad's fall it is obvious that it appears to be the ONLY case where the collars of the shafts collided. Not counting the first) Check it, its obvious. Of the other cases, the second case has no collisions between the upper parts, becauase they are separated. YOUR case has all the impact collar to collar. Its right there on the video. So your case is the ONLY case in that video that shows impact when a case falls to the ground, not counting the first POS. This from your OWN experiment. Your case does a better job of stopping reverberating of the parts after the fall, but the only fall impact is happening on YOUR case. Its right there on the video.

The second case in the video has better protection in that view than the ultrapad.

Now for the bottom of the case section, what moron has their case sitting lid down? That part should have been filmed from the bottom of the case, while the bottom is sitting on the floor where it would be during a normal fall.

This video is propaganda from the far east, as usual. Even though it was made in Texas.

Did you plan on using the pool table cushion for dramatic effect on the bounce? You know that doesn't happen when the case hits the floor, right fellas? I know you wouldn't use parlor tricks to deceive the viewers, right?

JV

I discount the no pad case because of the quality. So its a non-factor in the video, its only between 2 and 3.

Here is the slow motion video we debuted at the Super Billiards Expo.

JB Cases - Protection Matters - Slow Motion Video


Feel free to discuss what you see here. The video was done by Blake - SloMoHolic - and I told him that we were not out to doctor it up in any way.

I sent him three interiors wrapped with vinyl. The interiors are plastic extruded tubing shells lined with fabric divided compartments.

Interior #1 has no foam rubber padding at all. The liner is thin nylon.

Interior #2 has some foam rubber around the perimeter inside and a piece of vinyl in between the cavtities. This only extends about five inches into the tube and the rest is thin nylon. The nylon does NOT extend all the way to the bottom.

Interior #3 is our UltraPad interior.

All three of these are actual interiors found on cases that run the price range from inexpensive to very expensive. The point being that even if you pay thousands of dollars for a cue case you might not be getting the protection you think should or would be there.

We are open to all discussion of what is seen here. We felt that showing what happens when the case simply falls over was the way to go because this is something common that most of can relate to. It's either happened to us or we have seen it happen.

Feel free to analyze it and dissect it. If you are an engineer or physicist then put up some relevant data. I did ask a few cue makers which interior they prefered and the UltraPad was their choice. The cue repair guys on the other hand preferred the less padded ones.

So here you go, what really happens in your case.

 

[Walkermine]

I have a few cases and I have to say jb ,j flowers, gtf, jiasen, all of these protect my cues, and make me very happy. They all have the ultra padding. And I wouldn't use anything else.... Good job John ... Thanks again. Dom

I would have to agree with most of your examples. I have a J. Flowers and couldn't be happier. However, there is one exception to your list and that is the 1x2 GTF. I bought about a half dozen some time back for both storage and an occasional trip to our pool room. IMHO, they need some type of friction fit ring or snap to better secure the lids to the body of the case. Not that I've seen or heard of a cap separating from the case body as a result of a fall, I did have problems with all after awhile where if I picked them up by the cap end, the cap would slide completely from the case and the case body ended up falling to the floor. Luckily no cue damage and I learned quickly to always pick the case up by the body and not by the cap end. I believe the reason for this is that the cloth is too smooth at that point of contact with the cap. Again, outside of that, they are all great cases.
Paul

 

[classiccues]

After slowing down the video in Adobe

I don't know how to isolate sections or video edit, however you can pretty much stop the video just about any where you need to.

Regarding the "ultrapad":
41:12/13 Center shaft hits LR shaft and slides off, UR shaft hits LR shaft

6:44:19/20/21: UL hits LL, center shaft hits LR and LL

3 x 6 case at 6:59:17 UL shaft appears to hit LL shaft and UR appears to hit LR

Honorable mention: 7:19 the fully dressed (completed case) shows no impacts probably because of the full exterior with pockets. Which if all of the cases were fully dressed, its my opinion that there would be no contact even on the ultrapad cases.

9:57:02/03 clearest shot of contact of all the shafts in an ultrapad case. Pictures are indisputable and attached. All you need to see.

Clearly if protection mattered, the middle case, is the case to choose. Ironically it appears to be the first version of the Justis Interior.

Sorry already seen to my satisfaction.

JV

 

[classiccues]

Ready for my close up Mr. DeMille...

So lets dance this dance again.. who makes the case where there is zero contact on impact... woohoo...

Hillbilly diddy...

Let me tell you bout a man named Jack
Making cue cases in his Florida shack...
Drop'em on the floor it won't really splatter
Especially when cue Protection MATTERS...

JV

 

[classiccues]

9:57:01/02/03

You cannot get this from watching at full speed or some freeware download program..

01: Case has made table contact
02: Clearly shows pushout of the center shafts and contact from the uppers
03: shows the deflection of the upper shafts off the other shafts

Watch this in a good video editing program with zoom and its indisputable.

Also a close up of :02

JV

 

[JB Cases]

Everything is disputable as you well know Joe. I have studied and do not think that there is impact. Blake has all the video and he has the cases. I will ask him to film the case again from different angles and show clearly that the cues don't touch.

And even IF they did touch then it would be a fraction of a second. Each 14 seconds of video represents 1 second in real time. So the touching IF any in this extreme example would be a fraction of a second.

All of the other examples including the one at .41 show clearly that the cue parts don't touch at all. However for the other two, no padding and minimal padding the cue parts touch and bang violently against each other multiple times. So much so that if Blake were to release the audio in real time it's painful to hear.

When I get to work I will clamp the case between two boards and show that the cues cannot touch.

I thank you for your diligence and examination. IF by some chance I find that the cues can touch even for a microsecond in a simple fall test then I will immediately change the interiors to insure that this cannot happen. Because that's simply who we are Joe. IF we find ourselves not protecting cues as well as we can then we improve.

What video editing program are you using so we can all be on the same page.

 

[classiccues]

So you maintain that the second case, the pieces are directly touching? Because I think they don't touch, unless you are discounting the barrier. So I think you're being very melodramatic in your assesment of case 2.

There is clearly impact in the ultrapad, the fact is slow motion already makes the software easier to break down. Your freeware program is not capable of stopping the video accurately enough. But its freeware and its available on the internet, must be great.

You don't film it again, you look at the film you posted.

Fraction of a second, thats all it takes for a chip, right? Fact is they touch. I can get your "wave" to touch shafts with light to moderate pressure on the edge.

Slow down the video, post the sections and let people see it close up. The shadows do not effect the fall of the case, and / or position of the cues.

Adobe premier.

JV

Everything is disputable as you well know Joe. I have studied and do not think that there is impact. Blake has all the video and he has the cases. I will ask him to film the case again from different angles and show clearly that the cues don't touch.

And even IF they did touch then it would be a fraction of a second. Each 14 seconds of video represents 1 second in real time. So the touching IF any in this extreme example would be a fraction of a second.

All of the other examples including the one at .41 show clearly that the cue parts don't touch at all. However for the other two, no padding and minimal padding the cue parts touch and bang violently against each other multiple times. So much so that if Blake were to release the audio in real time it's painful to hear.

When I get to work I will clamp the case between two boards and show that the cues cannot touch.

I thank you for your diligence and examination. IF by some chance I find that the cues can touch even for a microsecond in a simple fall test then I will immediately change the interiors to insure that this cannot happen. Because that's simply who we are Joe. IF we find ourselves not protecting cues as well as we can then we improve.

What video editing program are you using so we can all be on the same page.

 

[JB Cases]

So you maintain that the second case, the pieces are directly touching? Because I think they don't touch, unless you are discounting the barrier. So I think you're being very melodramatic in your assesment of case 2.

There is clearly impact in the ultrapad, the fact is slow motion already makes the software easier to break down. Your freeware program is not capable of stopping the video accurately enough. But its freeware and its available on the internet, must be great.

You don't film it again, you look at the film you posted.

Fraction of a second, thats all it takes for a chip, right? Fact is they touch. I can get your "wave" to touch shafts with light to moderate pressure on the edge.

Slow down the video, post the sections and let people see it close up. The shadows do not effect the fall of the case, and / or position of the cues.

Adobe premier.

JV

The Minimal Padding case does NOT allow the cues to touch at the top where the shafts are below the lip of the case. That same interior though only has thin nylon from about 3-4 inches down and does not reach all the way to the bottom. Thus the cues not only touch at the bottom but they are even more violently flung together due to the fact that they are held at the top.

I am downloading Adobe Premier now.

 

[JB Cases]

As for filming it again when you have a result and it is unclear then you try to duplicate the results. I would have Blake film it ten times in a row to see just what is happening.

I don't think that the collars touch and if they do touch then it's extremely brief and light. The point is that the protection is still higher than in the case where the cues are allowed to crash together.

I show the bottoms and the tops of the cases. In every shot the bottom of the minimal padding case shows crashing.

 

[classiccues]

Well just be clear, this is the footage being debated.

When a case falls from a standing position, what you are showing doesn't happen. The base is obvisouly touching the ground already, so showing it being the "top" is disingenuous.

As far as the makeup of the second case and the depth of the sleeve, I don't own one so I cannot attest to the internal construction.

JV

As for filming it again when you have a result and it is unclear then you try to duplicate the results. I would have Blake film it ten times in a row to see just what is happening.

I don't think that the collars touch and if they do touch then it's extremely brief and light. The point is that the protection is still higher than in the case where the cues are allowed to crash together.

I show the bottoms and the tops of the cases. In every shot the bottom of the minimal padding case shows crashing.