Hey, we're not talking about cross-eyed players.
Do you look at the cue ball or object ball when shooting?
- Thread starter Magyar19
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Hey, we're not talking about cross-eyed players.
Well, I do not believe the analogy fails. The struck ball is sent to (or through) a specific target in all these sports. Yes, the degree of precision needed for many (but not all) pool shots is greater than the degree of precision needed for many (but not all) "shots" in those other sports, but that does not invalidate the analogy.
As far as focusing on "the object ball and the precise spot where the cueball needs to make contact with it," I'd say, yes, many people do that successfully. But other people have different aiming methods and do not focus on the intended contact point; they may focus on the ghost ball as a whole, or the spot on the table where the ghost ball would rest, or some fractional part of the OB. Or, if you are a Houlian CTE aimer, you may never look for an intended contact point and may never even look back to the OB after the pivot that the technique involves.
In my Post #48, I acknowledged that the majority of top players look at the OB last. But I assure you that it is possible to play at a pretty sporty level while looking at the CB last. It has amused me over the decades how many "experts" state categorically that one has to look at the OB last to play well.
I was thinking of this post when I went to practice tonight. I am VERY much a beginner, so I am open to any and all suggestions when it comes to aiming and stroke and such. I tried both ways, looking at the OB last and the CB last, and I found for me that I did better on longer more difficult shots when looking at the object ball last. I am still trying to find what is comfortable to me and I found that the shot made the difference in the "aiming system" i used. I found for certain shots it was all "ghost ball" and for others it was fractional points on the OB and other times I had no clue what i just attempted to do 
. I guess I am still working on a system that works for me, but I am finding that the more I practice and the more league matches i actually play the better I am getting. For me thats what matters. That I learn every time I practice or play. When I get good enough maybe the wins will matter more (although I do enjoy them now when they happen) but Im happier when I learn something new or make a shot I have been struggling with
. I guess I am still working on a system that works for me, but I am finding that the more I practice and the more league matches i actually play the better I am getting. For me thats what matters. That I learn every time I practice or play. When I get good enough maybe the wins will matter more (although I do enjoy them now when they happen) but Im happier when I learn something new or make a shot I have been struggling with
With the exception of golf, all the category 2 sports include a target in motion. It takes a fair amount of accuracy to swing a bat and hit a ball. That's why batters look at the ball. Put the ball on a tee, and an accomplished batter can hit it with his eyes closed. The category 1 sports all have something in common which is an innate sense of the exact location of the ball. Usually, it's in your hand and a coordinated person knows exactly where his hand is. The same can be said for pool: you know exactly where the CB is, because it's inches away from your hand and stationary. So pool could be in either group.
The key is whether or not you consider the CB to be an extension of your body (like the racket, bat, club, rifle, etc). That is what determines CB or OB being the target. If you are consistent enough to know the exact position of the CB, then you don't need to look at it. Advanced players have developed that skill over time, which is why they tend to look at the OB last. Once you learn how to sense the location of the CB, you can close your eyes and still pocket balls. Despite the thousands of AZB threads dedicated to this subject, I really don't think it makes much of a difference which ball you look at. However, I would recommend novice players look at the CB as it has not yet become an extension of their body.
Sometimes I catch myself looking at the spot on the table where I'm playing position--especially 1pocket or bar tables. Probably a lapse in concentration.
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I was thinking of this post when I went to practice tonight. I am VERY much a beginner, so I am open to any and all suggestions when it comes to aiming and stroke and such. I tried both ways, looking at the OB last and the CB last, and I found for me that I did better on longer more difficult shots when looking at the object ball last. I am still trying to find what is comfortable to me and I found that the shot made the difference in the "aiming system" i used. I found for certain shots it was all "ghost ball" and for others it was fractional points on the OB and other times I had no clue what i just attempted to do
Pool is 100% different from all sports, it uses peripheral vision, or side vision (especially if you using ghost ball aim), which is that part of vision that detects objects outside the direct line of vision. For instance, when you read a word on a page, you are using your central vision, but it’s your side vision that tells you if the word is at the beginning or end of a sentence. Where as all other sports it is direct hit with center vision and those that anticipate and calculate where moving targets are at that instant are better at it, of which looking at that equipment to hit is critical, like hitting a nail, you got to look at the nail to drive it. For pool if you look at OB while stroking there is a chance you might switch between your peripheral and central vision and your tip end up doing the aiming for you and under cut in most cases. On the other hand, If you use the tip as aiming for those shots 1/2 ball and less then you are using center vision at which you have to look at OB, and anything larger cut not sure if you can use the tip if you do then you have to look at that aim spot.
For advance users that uses peripheral vision, as test for your stroke, to see if it 100% straight, do the same shot routine (no english) find that sweet peripheral vision , and when you about to fire, close eyes, if your stroke straight you will definitively make the ball.
This thread can be closed now!
When you're on and stroking well you're looking at everything and nothing at the same time
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Yes, that's essentially what I was saying in my last two paragraphs of Post #48.
I get down low enough to see both balls. I look over the cue-ball onto the object. I know it works. I've got the titles to prove it.
Maybe that's what's MISSING in your game.
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tommcgonaglerightoncue.com
Maybe that's what's MISSING in your game.
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tommcgonaglerightoncue.com
last thing I would like this thread to turn into is one camp bashing the other. The obvious position here is "OB-lasters" trying to prove "CB-lasters" make it wrong. While it has already been said more than once that both things work even for the same person, that's just a matter of perception.
The way I play is I definitely look at the CB last, and I do it intentionally and in full consciousness. In the beginning it did bother me a bit, I was questioning myself whether it is right or wrong, every instructional I met back then was telling to do the opposite - until I learnt Ralf does the same. After that I realized there is nothing wrong about my sighting technique. One of the local pros told me he believes the most important thing in pre-shot routine is alignment. If you approach the shot wrong and thus are on the wrong line, you tend to miss the shot. So, my conclusion, you are bound to miss or make it regardless of the way you look at the balls. Whatever ball you look at last - you check both during preliminary strokes and by the time of a final stroke you know where the ball is. If you look at OB last, you know where the CB is. And vice versa.
Myself, I walk into the shot along the line of aiming/stroking, and I aim with an eye pattern looking back and forth cb-ob-cb-ob. At the last pause the tip is against the CB so I watch that point and take a quick glance at the OB for a final check whether I am still on the line of aim. That's the last time I looked at the OB because on my final stroke I watch the CB and concentrate on hitting the exact point I selected.
AtLarge, thanks for reminding of your great post. Apart from golf, in football (or soccer) kicking a ball also can involve a stationary object. i.e. a ball at rest. What I definitely know, the kicker should look at the ball in order to make a good and precise hit. Because by the time he makes it he already knows where the goal is.
The way I play is I definitely look at the CB last, and I do it intentionally and in full consciousness. In the beginning it did bother me a bit, I was questioning myself whether it is right or wrong, every instructional I met back then was telling to do the opposite - until I learnt Ralf does the same. After that I realized there is nothing wrong about my sighting technique. One of the local pros told me he believes the most important thing in pre-shot routine is alignment. If you approach the shot wrong and thus are on the wrong line, you tend to miss the shot. So, my conclusion, you are bound to miss or make it regardless of the way you look at the balls. Whatever ball you look at last - you check both during preliminary strokes and by the time of a final stroke you know where the ball is. If you look at OB last, you know where the CB is. And vice versa.
Myself, I walk into the shot along the line of aiming/stroking, and I aim with an eye pattern looking back and forth cb-ob-cb-ob. At the last pause the tip is against the CB so I watch that point and take a quick glance at the OB for a final check whether I am still on the line of aim. That's the last time I looked at the OB because on my final stroke I watch the CB and concentrate on hitting the exact point I selected.
AtLarge, thanks for reminding of your great post. Apart from golf, in football (or soccer) kicking a ball also can involve a stationary object. i.e. a ball at rest. What I definitely know, the kicker should look at the ball in order to make a good and precise hit. Because by the time he makes it he already knows where the goal is.
I'm not doubting that you can see both balls when you stroke. I have a low stance as well, and I can see both balls, but that's not the point. The point is where your attention is focused. Are you giving equal amounts of attention to both balls? That would mean both are, visually, slightly out of focus. Are you focusing on the CB? That means the OB is slightly out of focus. You see where I'm going with this.
In shooting, your sight picture involves aligning rear sight to front sight to target, but your focus is on the front sight.
As you stated above, you're looking over the CB "onto the object", which means you're focusing on the OB. So you're an OB-laster. :thumbup: There's no shame in that.
depends what kind of shooting....
If you're target shooting then you may be focusing on the sights, if you're combat shooting, you're focusing on the target and everything around you, the sights are usually the last thing you are focusing on.
If you're rifle shooting, then you're also focusing on the target as you pull the trigger.
Jaden
If you're target shooting then you may be focusing on the sights, if you're combat shooting, you're focusing on the target and everything around you, the sights are usually the last thing you are focusing on.
If you're rifle shooting, then you're also focusing on the target as you pull the trigger.
Jaden
From Byrne's Standard Book of Pool and Billiards, Updated Edition, 1987, by Robert Byrne, p. 16:
"At the last instant, look either at the cueball or at the object ball -- in fact, closing your eyes should have little effect once you've found the aim and grooved your stoke;"
But you only have two choices. That being the case you can look off the table and maintain accuracy, but that is not true.
Could you please explain this in depth? Is the CB or OB more in focus? Can you even say off the top of your head without going to the table to find out?
I never used to think about this stuff. I was bridging over a ball while shooting at the 8 ball. I misscued and lost that hill - hill game. My opponent, who played in the US Open, offered the advice that I should look at the CB last on that shot. I told him I look at the CB last on all shots. He was shocked. I look at the OB last now with the CB in the perifery. When I'm playing in the zone, it feels like I'm playing the whole shot (CB, OB, shot line, final CB position) without focusing on any one thing.
I think this is pretty accurate
But I would go further and say that one of the key elements in this is that you're looking at the whole shot -- pocket, OB, CB -- to orient your body for any given shot before you descend into shooting position. From there, once you're down on the shot, you do look at both balls (some instructors teach an eye movement pattern to and fro).And, just as importantly to me at least, is seeing the relationship of my cue shaft and tip to the CB. It's kind of hard to describe, but if you've properly aligned yourself, and correctly descended into shooting position (not committing any motion that would throw you off line), the aiming part is then just a matter of fine tuning the speed and hit on the CB. That's why, for me, the cue shaft and tip are important to be able to see too.
Having said all that, I'm looking at the OB last.
Lou Figueroa
I think this is pretty accurate
And, just as importantly to me at least, is seeing the relationship of my cue shaft and tip to the CB. It's kind of hard to describe, but if you've properly aligned yourself, and correctly descended into shooting position (not committing any motion that would throw you off line), the aiming part is then just a matter of fine tuning the speed and hit on the CB. That's why, for me, the cue shaft and tip are important to be able to see too.
Having said all that, I'm looking at the OB last.
Lou Figueroa
You guys must have not yet encountered the infirmities of old age yet.
I'm in my late 50s, and on my home table (33" height) I can still get low enough to see the CB-stick-OB trilogy as a unit. But on lower tables (I dread the 29") I can't get down far enough to see the CB and OB together on long shots, and eye/head movement comes into play. I can foresee the day when I won't be able to do his on any table.
So for that segment of the population that can't see the proper alignment when in a comfortable stance, I would contend that CB-last is a viable fix for some players.