Do you look at the cue ball or object ball when shooting?

h4xs4w said:
But delivering the CB to a precise location is only half the battle. Accurately hitting the CB to apply the precise amount of spin comes into play as well. Am I just over-estimating the amount of precision needed? Is that something that takes care of itself with a repeatable stroke?
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That's my position. It's fairly controversial, but I think it's really easy to overthink addressing the cueball, with disasterous effects. There are so many micro things going on; your stroke mechanics get fine tuned over time, in ways you really can't control consciously. Muscle memory over time doing what works and avoiding what doesn't is what gets the proper address on the cue ball. You can hit the cue ball perfectly where and how you want, but it's irrelevant if the cue ball doesn't hit the OB where it needs to. That's a much smaller margin of error.
 
Works for me...

West Point 1987 said:
That's my position. It's fairly controversial, but I think it's really easy to overthink addressing the cueball, with disasterous effects. There are so many micro things going on; your stroke mechanics get fine tuned over time, in ways you really can't control consciously. Muscle memory over time doing what works and avoiding what doesn't is what gets the proper address on the cue ball. You can hit the cue ball perfectly where and how you want, but it's irrelevant if the cue ball doesn't hit the OB where it needs to. That's a much smaller margin of error.
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Intuitively, that "feels" wrong, but I'm sure if I were a Pro, it would feel just right.

That seems to be the general consensus amongst the knowledgeable people I've talked to, so that's what I'll be practicing.
 
sr 9ball said:
Jeff Carter said each shot is different. which ever u decide to look at last, u need to be 100% committed.
I've always looked at the cb last. I took a mental image of the ob and aimed with my tip on the cb. doing this,I always had the cb on a string. But I occasionally missed long hard shots. Now I look at the ob on the long shots last and it seams to help.
All in all I believe u have better cb control looking at the cb last. and better pocketing power looking at the ob last.
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Very good posting!

I for myself recommend to students, to look at object ball at least-because the greater amount of players do it and bc it works well for most ppl.
Also i for myself used to look at cb *at last* for about 10 years before i changed it. Nowadays i change just on some shots. Both works for me-and i use that kind of *looking* i feel sure at that moment.

JoeyA: i understand what you mean about the *perspectives*-but be sure that Ralf really looks at last at CB- i did it for many years and it worked well. how i said-nowadays use both ways-it depends on the shot i m doing (no special shots like massee or jump shots).

From Efren i have to be honest..i didn t thought so-and also not really detected it by observing him. I would say in his case, that he does both. But he should know better what he s doin^^

lg
Ingo
 
I looked at a fair amount of Souquet video, as well as some other pros, and came to these conclusions.

- Watch the eyebrows. When looking at a distant OB, and the eyes are rolled back to see the OB, the 'brows elevate. This is easier to identify on video than tracking the pupils.

- I came to the conclusion that on long shots, that require an eye shift when going CB to OB, Souquet looks CB last, and then immediately shifts to OB after tip impact.

- On shorter shots, where the CB and OB can be simultaneously seen easily, he appears to be consistently on OB without shifting.

When the eyes require a lot of motion in going from CB to OB, the head also tends to move. I have observed that many of the "OB last" players are really "OB only"; they don't shift their eyes back and forth.

Whether you look at CB or OB last may be of no particular importance. I think the main thing is that any eye shifting may lead to head shifting that can throw your shot off.

This is contrary to standard teaching, but is what I have seen in a limited set of video observations.
 
Not Dead Ted said:
I looked at a fair amount of Souquet video, as well as some other pros, and came to these conclusions.

- Watch the eyebrows. When looking at a distant OB, and the eyes are rolled back to see the OB, the 'brows elevate. This is easier to identify on video than tracking the pupils.

- I came to the conclusion that on long shots, that require an eye shift when going CB to OB, Souquet looks CB last, and then immediately shifts to OB after tip impact.

- On shorter shots, where the CB and OB can be simultaneously seen easily, he appears to be consistently on OB without shifting.

When the eyes require a lot of motion in going from CB to OB, the head also tends to move. I have observed that many of the "OB last" players are really "OB only"; they don't shift their eyes back and forth.

Whether you look at CB or OB last may be of no particular importance. I think the main thing is that any eye shifting may lead to head shifting that can throw your shot off.

This is contrary to standard teaching, but is what I have seen in a limited set of video observations.
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I'm gong to try and pay more attention to Ralf and others who claim they look at the cue ball last. I like what you had to say. While it is YOUR perspective, it is original and goes against the grain of traditional teaching as you mentioned. Thanks for your unique observations.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if some people look at the cue ball last to keep themselves from re-aiming at the object ball. I also imagine that if you align yourself perfectly on every shot, you could one-stroke every shot and never miss a ball, à la Strickland.
 
I'm a CB-laster. Just learned that way I guess, have tried to switch to looking at the OB last a few times but have never had the time to really gain confidence with it. I do look at the OB last on easier shots, proabably as someone said when both balls are in my field of vision.

I think I learned that way because I always had a great stroke and certainly was fascinated with and overused spin (trying to cut back in my old age...). My eyesight wasn't great, so I always tried to get close to the ball and use my spin and knowledge to get around the table. Because of that I think, where I hit on the cueball was more important than looking up at the OB, when I felt like I was already lined up.

I do agree on certain shots it can be easy to tweak myself out of making the shot if I put too much focus on the CB, since there's no visual feedback to show me I'm off line, so I'm trying to work on at least moving my eyes more to keep feeding back that I'm still on the correct line during my preshot routine. I do think there's value in converting fully to OB last but will take more time than I have right now to practice and be able to do it under pressure. I play pretty well as is, perhaps I would play even better if I made that change, tough to say...

Scott
 
I posted this last year.

For one large set of sports actions, let's call it Category I, the competitor is holding or is attached to a piece of equipment and desires to direct that piece of equipment elsewhere:
  • Throwing a baseball;
  • Throwing a football;
  • Throwing/shooting a basketball;
  • Throwing a dart;
  • Rolling a bowling ball;
  • Shooting an arrow;
  • Shooting a gun;
  • Driving a race car;
  • Riding a race horse.
In all of these, and many more, the competitor's "last look" is at the target for the ball or dart or car, etc. -- not at the ball (or steering wheel).

For another large set of sports actions, let's call it Category II, the competitor holds one piece of equipment and desires to hit another piece of equipment and direct that second piece of equipment to a desired target or with a certain degree of accuracy:
  • Hitting a baseball;
  • Kicking a football;
  • Hitting a tennis ball;
  • Hitting a golf ball;
  • Hitting a ping pong ball;
  • Hitting a badminton shuttlecock;
  • Striking a volley ball.
In all of these, and many more, the competitor's "last look" is at the ball -- not at the target for that ball and not at the piece of equipment he is holding.

So how about pool/billiards? Isn't it logically a Category II action? We hold one piece of equipment (the cue stick), desiring to strike a second piece of equipment (the cue ball), and send that second piece of equipment to a desired target (a proper hit on the object ball or rail). We are throwing the cue stick in a beautiful underhand motion at the cue ball. So "cue ball last" is appropriate, right?

But I am quite sure that the majority (but by no means all) of the top pool players look at the object ball last. If my analogies above are correct, why does "OB last" work so well for so many players? I believe it is because the cue ball is at rest and we can place our cue stick and bridge hand precisely behind it and thereby treat the combination of cue stick and cue ball as almost one piece of equipment instead of two. Then the cuing action becomes similar to a Category I action -- we are throwing the cue stick/ball at the object ball. So "object ball last" works just fine if the cue stick is always precisely delivered to the cue ball.

So either way -- CB last or OB last -- can work well in pool. I believe analogies with other sports argue more closely for CB last (my Category II above), but just a slightly different way of viewing what's happening can create a good Category I argument.
 
Maybe top pool players look at OB last because they have no problems hitting the CB exactly where they intend.

However, beginners and maybe intermediates too, might be hitting the CB slightly off if they look at OB last ?

Another question is what about cut shots ? If you look at the OB last, will you subconsciously shift your stroke towards the OB ?
 
lfigueroa said:
A little while back, a young fellow in St. Louis was saying, "John Schmidt looks at the CB last."

Later, a very accomplished player here asked me, "Do you think that's true? I think there may be some merit to that."

And I said, "Well, that goes against everything I've ever learned about the game, but I'll ask him at the Derby."

And so, I see John in the straight pool room earlier this year and say, "John, someone in St. Louis is saying you say you should look at the CB last."

And he says, "Lou, you are a good enough player to known better than that."

And I would like to think I am.

Lou Figueroa
some days :-)
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Yep. You would think if all of these pros look at the cue ball last you would see it on videos of them playing.
 
TheThaiger said:
How do you mean they don't know what they're looking at?
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We all dart our eyes back and forth between the cueball and the object ball when we shoot. I think that someone can mistakenly believe that the last ball they look at in this sequence is the cueball, when in fact just before they shoot they look at the object ball last.

Luther Lassiter was once asked if he gave lessons and he said, "no, because I don't know what I'm doing."
 
AtLarge said:
For another large set of sports actions, let's call it Category II, the competitor holds one piece of equipment and desires to hit another piece of equipment and direct that second piece of equipment to a desired target or with a certain degree of accuracy:
  • Hitting a baseball;
  • Kicking a football;
  • Hitting a tennis ball;
  • Hitting a golf ball;
  • Hitting a ping pong ball;
  • Hitting a badminton shuttlecock;
  • Striking a volley ball.
In all of these, and many more, the competitor's "last look" is at the ball -- not at the target for that ball and not at the piece of equipment he is holding.
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Ok, so the cuestick is the bat (racket, golf club, etc.), and the cueball is the baseball (tennis ball, golf ball, etc.).

What corresponds to the object ball that we also need to move to a precise location (the pocket) after contact with the cueball in these examples?
 
PoolBum said:
Ok, so the cuestick is the bat (racket, golf club, etc.), and the cueball is the baseball (tennis ball, golf ball, etc.).

What corresponds to the object ball that we also need to move to a precise location (the pocket) after contact with the cueball in these examples?
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We're trying to send the CB to a precise target -- either the ghost ball position to pocket the OB (regardless of what aiming method gets the CB there) or some other spot on the table (or cushion). So we have a very specific and small target in pool. In the other "Category II" sports I mentioned, we're also trying to send the struck ball to a target -- sometimes a fairly broad target (like anywhere in the gap between the first baseman and second baseman) and sometimes a fairly precise one (like the spot on the green you need to hit for the golf ball to then break properly and roll down to the cup). So while there is no second ball in those other sports, they all still have a target for the struck ball, just like pool. In all those sports, the "shot" is successful if the struck ball is sent to the right target at the appropriate speed and with the appropriate spin.
 
Does anyone look at intermediate target ?

For example, focus on the cue ball and/or the aim line in front of the cue ball ?

My problem with focusing on the OB, is the CB goes out of focus and looks fuzzy on long shots. I end up striking the CB a little off target resulting in unintended english or an off line stroke.

I currently get better results focusing on the CB and stroking my cue on the imaginary aim line in front of the CB which I can clearly see.
 
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AtLarge said:
We're trying to send the CB to a precise target -- either the ghost ball position to pocket the OB (regardless of what aiming method gets the CB there) or some other spot on the table (or cushion). So we have a very specific and small target in pool. In the other "Category II" sports I mentioned, we're also trying to send the struck ball to a target -- sometimes a fairly broad target (like anywhere in the gap between the first baseman and second baseman) and sometimes a fairly precise one (like the spot on the green you need to hit for the golf ball to then break properly and roll down to the cup). So while there is no second ball in those other sports, they all still have a target for the struck ball, just like pool. In all those sports, the "shot" is successful if the struck ball is sent to the right target at the appropriate speed and with the appropriate spin.
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But the analogy fails because none of these other sports have a second ball that must be sent to a precise target.

The precision of the cueball's contact point on the object ball is unmatched in any of these other sports by a second ball needing to move to a precise spot (in this case into the pocket), which means we don't have to be nearly as precise in our placement of the first ball to be successful. There are many places one can hit the tennis ball to win the point, many places to hit the baseball to get a hit, etc., but only one spot on the object ball to successfully pocket the ball (though there is some small margin for error).

This added element--the precision required for the second ball--is precisely what explains why in pool we need to focus on the object ball and the precise spot where the cueball needs to make contact with it in order to successfully execute the shot.
 
Great post AtLarge, and most probably why I naturally learned to look at the CB last as I was learning the game, being a tennis player in high school/college the tennis analogy in category 2 rings true.

You are right though, that most people look at the OB last, trusting to hit the cue ball where intended. Most likely because the bridge is reasonably short and the cueing motion is mechanically pretty simply and repeatable. I will say that looking at the CB last can cause me to fudge a bit, especially if trying to force a shot that's too straight for instance, and without that picture of the OB your brain can think everything is okay until you miss. I've learned to look more intently at the OB on those shots particularly, and learning now to incorporate some more looks at the OB in my routine as well as looking at the OB more when it feels right.

For you golfers, this is similar to putting while looking at the hole. If your putting stroke is sound, you can easily swing your putter back 6 - 8 inches and back through the ball in a pendulum motion and still hit the ball properly. Yet everyone looks at the point of impact during the stroke. As a practice exercise to work on acceleration I've looked at the hole last, and it's weird at first but it's interesting how your mind will just make the right length stroke (and sometimes more smooth and compact). But at first you would swear you are going to miss the ball...

Lastly as to intermediate targets, I personally use these when elevated, especially shooting long draw shots when close to the rail. I find if I line up the shot and pick a spot an inch or two in front of the cue ball I can elevate and put all of my energy in just making a good stroke and it's easier to bounce my eyes just an inch or two in front of the ball instead of looking up table. But that's probably more because my shoulder is jacked up and I need to have my hand under my elbow, if I could shoot with a more sideways action it probably wouldn't be an issue.

Scott
 
I have run out looking at the CB last and the OB last but I always revert back to the CB last. True aiming is done before your final set position and if all is done correctly you should already be perfectly aligned, so then, imo the CB becomes the target. As some have suggested that I'll never become a real player, I'm quite content with being an accomplished league player who's only getting better......good luck with your dreams.
 
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