Do you really need a straight stroke???

BRKNRUN

BRKNRUN

Showin some A$$
Silver Member
Just curious..

Now that it seems everyone knows about BHE, Tuck and Roll, Aim and Swoop, Aim and Pivot...or what ever name you want to call it...Do you really even need a striaght stroke, or do you just need to make sure that once your aim is set your brige hand remains absolutly stable???

(Disclaimer: I am talking about using a normal shaft with normal deflection)

Just seems like as long as you can set up aimed perfect, and your brige hand remains stable...it does not really matter if you happen to stroke a little crooked..

(Second Disclaimer: This is disregarding "shape" for the moment...I understand that now unwanted english may change the outcome of where the CB is going)

Bottom line...As long as you can set up with a striaght aim, do you really need to practice the perfect stroke to be able to pocket balls???
 
Stroke ...

Some players can practice for 50 years and never have it.
Some can play for 2-3 months and have a beautiful stroke.
(that's not saying they are making balls, just that their
stroke is good).
Stroke form has evolved to provide the optimum results
for any person wanting to play Pool. Variations to the
optimum form exist, but usually only in a small minority
of players, meaning real good players (like Keith's sidearm
stroke). It can be done, but it is the hard road, the proper
form and stroke is the easy road.
Form or stroke variations from the norm can pop up at
inopportune times, like when you are playing for big
money or a big tournament, and you have a difficult
shot you have to make to win the game. It's under
these pressure situations that these abnormal strokes
will show their flaws.
It is the same thing in any sport, be it golf, or baseball,
or whatever sport. This usually holds true for 99%
of the players, but you always have that 1% that defy
normal logic.
 
Think without a Great Stroke your game will suffer. Be it Golf, Bowling, Pool, Baseball, Stroke or Swing is everything.... ;)
 
BRKNRUN said:
Just seems like as long as you can set up aimed perfect, and your brige hand remains stable...it does not really matter if you happen to stroke a little crooked..

Bottom line...As long as you can set up with a striaght aim, do you really need to practice the perfect stroke to be able to pocket balls???
Click to expand...


I think you'll have various players and teachers that place an emphasis on one part of the game or the other moreso than the rest.

I don't think you can overlook the stroke, but there are some that feel the stroke is EVERYTHING and they're stroke freaks. When they compare it to golf, bowling, baseball, etc....it isn't even in the same league with each other.

Those strokes are very long and use many muscles throughout the body along with weight shifting. A pool stroke is entirely different. Typically my bridge is between 8-10 inches and my actual stroke is around 2" on the backstroke to CB. THAT'S IT! 2 friggin' inches. How much of a spastic and how uncoordinated do you have to be to screw up 2"? At most...I'll go to about 5" max when really powering a shot, but that's rare. Now my forward stroke after the CB is struck does NOT mirror my backstroke. It is longer in the follow through, sometimes by quite a bit. The tendency for anything going wrong in the stroke seems to have more to do with nerves or pressure and tightening your grip which will alter the stroke in that short distance. When you're loose and the tempo and timing are there like in practice, it's hard to miss.

I guess you could put me in the category of an aim/alignment stickler moreso than the stroke. Again, if you're set up correctly and have SOME hand eye coordination...you should be able to go 2-3" with just the forearm down moving.
 
Stroke

BRKNRUN said:
Just curious..

Now that it seems everyone knows about BHE, Tuck and Roll, Aim and Swoop, Aim and Pivot...or what ever name you want to call it...Do you really even need a striaght stroke, or do you just need to make sure that once your aim is set your brige hand remains absolutly stable???

(Disclaimer: I am talking about using a normal shaft with normal deflection)

Just seems like as long as you can set up aimed perfect, and your brige hand remains stable...it does not really matter if you happen to stroke a little crooked..

(Second Disclaimer: This is disregarding "shape" for the moment...I understand that now unwanted english may change the outcome of where the CB is going)

Bottom line...As long as you can set up with a striaght aim, do you really need to practice the perfect stroke to be able to pocket balls???
Click to expand...


NO, YOU DO NOT.
 
drivermaker said:
I think you'll have various players and teachers that place an emphasis on one part of the game or the other moreso than the rest.

I don't think you can overlook the stroke, but there are some that feel the stroke is EVERYTHING and they're stroke freaks. When they compare it to golf, bowling, baseball, etc....it isn't even in the same league with each other.

Those strokes are very long and use many muscles throughout the body along with weight shifting. A pool stroke is entirely different. Typically my bridge is between 8-10 inches and my actual stroke is around 2" on the backstroke to CB. THAT'S IT! 2 friggin' inches. How much of a spastic and how uncoordinated do you have to be to screw up 2"? At most...I'll go to about 5" max when really powering a shot, but that's rare. Now my forward stroke after the CB is struck does NOT mirror my backstroke. It is longer in the follow through, sometimes by quite a bit. The tendency for anything going wrong in the stroke seems to have more to do with nerves or pressure and tightening your grip which will alter the stroke in that short distance. When you're loose and the tempo and timing are there like in practice, it's hard to miss.

I guess you could put me in the category of an aim/alignment stickler moreso than the stroke. Again, if you're set up correctly and have SOME hand eye coordination...you should be able to go 2-3" with just the forearm down moving.
Click to expand...

So your saying that your total backstroke is only 2 inches???

I like your part about the grip being too tight. I believe that I do that and
its been tough to stop.
 
Everyone's goal with the stance, alignment, aim, stroke, and every other part of your physical mechanics is to send the cueball to exactly where you are aiming at, have the cueball achieve the desired path of position and have the cueball stop where you want it to.

There are different methods in striking the cueball. When Bustamante first came to the United States he introduced a version of the cross-over system, where he marks his tip either left or right of target and swerves over to his target on the final stroke. Bustamante's cue rarely went straight on his final stroke. When I saw Bustamante playing in the late 90's when he was the most feared player on the planet, he had changed his style and executed straight on the final stroke. Notice that he has always had a swoop in towards his body on his backstroke, but his forward stroke is dead straight. When Bustamante was using the crossover system on nearly every shot, Buddy hall once commented that whatever he was doing seemed to be working, but there is no way it could be as consistent as going straight.

Nick Varner is a fine example of someone who crosses the cueball on nearly every shot, if you are interested in this than watch as many tapes of him as you can and get someone to explain what he's doing and why he's doing it.

There are a couple of other methods other than the system I'm describing that requires you to swerve your cue left or right, up or down. I've been taught some of them, and I prefer going straight. Learning one of those systems put me into the worst slump of my life for over 2 years and I'm still recovering from it. Plain and simple the easiest way to send the cueball exactly to where you are aiming, and the easiest way to develop a stroke with power is to have a straight one, and this doesn't mean you have to have a straight backstroke. As long as the forward stroke is straight along your line of aim the backstroke does not matter.
 
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you know,,,,when i see a crooked stroke,,,like ervolino's nasty hook, everyone says, "yeah, but he went through the cb straight".

well,,,,,,,i don't think anyone "goes through the cb crooked"(as in, while the cue is actually going through the cb). the stroke goes crooked at the end of their stroke AFTER they've hit the cb.

and btw, 3C players hook a lot when they want to juice the cb. so i think it's all about how you aim from the get-go.
 
The stroke doesn't have to be perfectly straight, I belive Varner stated he shoots a with a little inside out. What is important is that it is a consistent, repeatable stroke, that is inline with your aiming patterns.
 
BRKNRUN said:
Just curious..

Now that it seems everyone knows about BHE, Tuck and Roll, Aim and Swoop, Aim and Pivot...or what ever name you want to call it...Do you really even need a striaght stroke, or do you just need to make sure that once your aim is set your brige hand remains absolutly stable???

(Disclaimer: I am talking about using a normal shaft with normal deflection)

Just seems like as long as you can set up aimed perfect, and your brige hand remains stable...it does not really matter if you happen to stroke a little crooked..

(Second Disclaimer: This is disregarding "shape" for the moment...I understand that now unwanted english may change the outcome of where the CB is going)

Bottom line...As long as you can set up with a striaght aim, do you really need to practice the perfect stroke to be able to pocket balls???
Click to expand...


Even with BHE you still need to stroke straight.

Gabber
 
drivermaker said:
Typical is between 8-10 inches and my is around 2". THAT'S IT! 2 friggin' inches.
Click to expand...

No wonder you pick on the women, I would have a helluva inferiority complex too, if THAT'S IT! 2 friggin' inches. I feel for you man.

Wayne
 
Drivemaker ...

You aren't one of those guys that try to push the cue ball
instead of stroking it on the hit stroke, are you?

There are 2 or 3 guys in town that do that, and it drives me
nuts. It's obvious that they are not comfortable with their
aiming or how to control the cue baLL, so they think by
pushing the cue ball, it will in some way make them more
accurate than just stroking the cue like everybody else does.
 
No, but velvet smooth wouldn't hurt your chances. Who gives a crap about straight. Hit the sweet spot and get the cheese. Now DM with two inches, not a big hit with the girls I suspect. Oh, wrong two inches :D well doesn't matter not a threat to busting pool ball either.

Rod
 
Good Resonses..Now let me pose this test.

Ok...I got pretty much what I expected in responses...

Let me throw out this fairly simple test.

Set up a straight in shot. Nothing too long..about 1/2 table length... Set up to the shot and get aligned (perfectly)....weather you want to stroke the cue to get lined up or if you just lay it in position is up to you...As soon as you get aligned (perfectly)...pause in that position for a brief second...Now keep your bridge hand absolutly solid in place and stoke the cue pretty much as loopy as you want (I am exaggerating here...no one is purposely going to loop their stroke in real life) Don't really pay attention to straight back and straight through...

now hit the CB a little high right, high left, low left, wherever you want but just not dead center...BUT make sure that your bridge hand never moved a bit.....Hit it off center by as much as a tip....Did the ball still go in...

Since all that's really happening is BHE (by accident) I still make the ball....As long as I am perfectly aligned from the get go, and then my bridge hand stays perfectly still, I can pretty much forget about stroking straight and just shoot the ball...No thinking necessary...

All I really have to think about is static(non moving) positioning ...Proper grip, proper stance, proper posture and proper alignment...Those "static" pieces insure that the alignment is perfectly straight and aligned before anything else happens...then as long as that bridge hand stays firmly planted.....the ball goes in....(as long as I was aligned properly from the beginning)

I (partially) agree with the poster that mentioned that golf and pool relate in the swing...I think they do relate in that they both require a solid foundation of Grip, Stance, Posture, Alignment...However the (actual) swing and the stroke are different...Perhaps the pool stroke is similar to the putting stroke since they are both just a back and through motion...But I agree with DM that the pool stroke and (full) golf swing have some major differences and can't qualify as similar...
 
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BRKNRUN said:
Ok...I got pretty much what I expected in responses...

Let me throw out this fairly simple test.

Set up a straight in shot. Nothing too long..about 1/2 table length... Set up to the shot and get aligned (perfectly)....weather you want to stroke the cue to get lined up or if you just lay it in position is up to you...As soon as you get aligned (perfectly)...pause in that position for a brief second...Now keep your bridge hand absolutly solid in place and stoke the cue pretty much as loopy as you want (I am exaggerating here...no one is purposely going to loop their stroke in real life) Don't really pay attention to straight back and straight through...

now hit the CB a little high right, high left, low left, wherever you want but just not dead center...BUT make sure that your bridge hand never moved a bit.....Hit it off center by as much as a tip....Did the ball still go in...

Since all that's really happening is BHE (by accident) I still make the ball....As long as I am perfectly aligned from the get go, and then my bridge hand stays perfectly still, I can pretty much forget about stroking straight and just shoot the ball...No thinking necessary...

All I really have to think about is static(non moving) positioning ...Proper grip, proper stance, proper posture and proper alignment...Those "static" pieces insure that the alignment is perfectly straight and aligned before anything else happens...then as long as that bridge hand stays firmly planted.....the ball goes in....(as long as I was aligned properly from the beginning)

I (partially) agree with the poster that mentioned that golf and pool relate in the swing...I think they do relate in that they both require a solid foundation of Grip, Stance, Posture, Alignment...However the (actual) swing and the stroke are different...Perhaps the pool stroke is similar to the putting stroke since they are both just a back and through motion...But I agree with DM that the pool stroke and (full) golf swing have some major differences and can't qualify as similar...
Click to expand...

What speed? :D (It does matter) Seriously a good pool player makes adjustments if english is used. What bridge you use, well who cares? Yes it needs to be stable but the ball will go where you aimed. You take in to consideration several factors but that's what pool players do, adapt. Give up control, that is a nasty word (control) but by doing it, you can gain control.

Rod
 
I don't see your point ...

Your bridge hand does not insure that you will hit it
correctly. People that hold the cue too close to
their hip (by standing too straight) or the flipside
have the cue way too far from their hip like a sidearm
stroke will have a tendency to go sideways with the
tip upon contact, bridgehand or no bridgehand.
You act like you want justification for a bad stroke
because your bridge hand will correct it.
If your cue comes into your bridge hand at angle
other than 90 degrees, chances are it will go
beyond your bridge hand at an angle. period ...
Now, the question is, do you want to shoot
30 or 40 years, and still be a 5, or do you want
to correct your mechanics, and have a chance
to be a 7 through a 10?
This is a prime example of why it is easier sometimes
to take a child who has never played and give them
lessons, than it is to take someone that has been
playing awhile, and try to correct all of their flaws,
because you have to pour the cup out, before you
fill it up again.

If you are not handicapped, then there is no reason
why you can not have a straight true stroke. As
Pat Morita said, 'Wax on, Wax off'. You will understand
the meaning behind it later ...

Did you understand everything about computers up front?
No, you only understood what keys to hit to get it
to perform what you wanted it to do, and most people
had to have some type of instruction to do that.

Pool is a learning process which has many building blocks
along the way.
 
BRKNRUN said:
Ok...I got pretty much what I expected in responses...

Let me throw out this fairly simple test.

Set up a straight in shot. Nothing too long..about 1/2 table length... Set up to the shot and get aligned (perfectly)....weather you want to stroke the cue to get lined up or if you just lay it in position is up to you...As soon as you get aligned (perfectly)...pause in that position for a brief second...Now keep your bridge hand absolutly solid in place and stoke the cue pretty much as loopy as you want (I am exaggerating here...no one is purposely going to loop their stroke in real life) Don't really pay attention to straight back and straight through...

now hit the CB a little high right, high left, low left, wherever you want but just not dead center...BUT make sure that your bridge hand never moved a bit.....Hit it off center by as much as a tip....Did the ball still go in...

Since all that's really happening is BHE (by accident) I still make the ball....As long as I am perfectly aligned from the get go, and then my bridge hand stays perfectly still, I can pretty much forget about stroking straight and just shoot the ball...No thinking necessary...

All I really have to think about is static(non moving) positioning ...Proper grip, proper stance, proper posture and proper alignment...Those "static" pieces insure that the alignment is perfectly straight and aligned before anything else happens...then as long as that bridge hand stays firmly planted.....the ball goes in....(as long as I was aligned properly from the beginning)

I (partially) agree with the poster that mentioned that golf and pool relate in the swing...I think they do relate in that they both require a solid foundation of Grip, Stance, Posture, Alignment...However the (actual) swing and the stroke are different...Perhaps the pool stroke is similar to the putting stroke since they are both just a back and through motion...But I agree with DM that the pool stroke and (full) golf swing have some major differences and can't qualify as similar...
Click to expand...


A "straight" stroke is simply the ability to hit the cueball in the right spot consistently. If you use BHE then you better be able to hit the cueball with low left when you want low left. I used to do a test with my junior students to show them that they weren't hitting the ball where they thought they were. It's easy to do it with a Rempe training ball, Elephant practice balls, or any ball you can set the same way every time.

Don't confuse stroke with follow-through, spin or speed. A piston can either stroke very slowly or very quickly or speed up and slow down but it is always straight as long as the cylinder is guiding it correctly. Bend a part and now the piston can't stroke straight and will eventually fail thorugh the stress of being off balance.

So whether your bridge is two inches, twenty inches, or you take practice strokes, pump your elbow, do piroettes or anything else doesn't matter as long as you can hit the cueball where you want to with the force you want to and those two are aligned correctly.

So, yes you have to have a "straight" stroke. Does it have to be pretty, silky, smooth, velvety, nah, not at all. Does it have to be accurate? If you want to run out more than sit down it does.

John
 
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