Do you STILL want Earl in the HOF???

[JustPlay]

No he didn't do the right thing. The right thing would have been to be honest and call the foul. What Earl did was play by the rules and for that I really can't fault him. To say he did the right thing, well maybe you and I just have a difference of opinion between what's right and what's wrong. The outcome was just and to me that is what really matters.

This pool not a lesson about life. Earl did do the right thing. Pool is not played with a ref and he moved the 5 ball with his cue, big deal, who really cares...It wasn't on an espn highlight or stated in the local or national news.... Like I stated before, those other players would have stated the same thing earl stated "...the ref did see it or call it...".

 

[Williebetmore]

i understand your point Willie.
but like they say, its not a foul, unless you get caught.

DCP

DCP,
I don't know about that, I checked my rule book and it says a foul is committed if you touch any other ball. It doesn't say anything about getting caught being a requirement. It also says nothing about fouls being allowed if the ref doesn't see it.

 

[Williebetmore]

While trying to learn straight pool I have seen several matches where there was an OBVIOUS foul and nothing was called. Those players did not stop the match and say they had just fouled, they kept on playing.

If we are gonna roast Earl, we need to roast em all.

Woody

Woody,
You are playing with the WRONG PLAYERS. In our league, we play all ball fouls, and we call them on ourselves (and our opponents are supposed to call it if they see it and we don't notice it). Anyone jerking around, trying to get away with a foul is OUT OF THE LEAGUE. I have never seen even one player try to get away with a foul (though I know several of the poorer players will occasionally agree to ignore object ball fouls; but NONE of the better players ever do this to my knowledge).

 

[chefjeff]

Everyone but the ref saw the foul. Earl saw it.

They say that integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is watching. I say, common sense is doing the right thing when everyone is watching. What will stick longer, the money won or the bad reputation?

A buddie of mine was playing last week in a round robin tournament. As I walked into the bar, he was breaking down his cue. I asked him, "Are you done?" "Yep, I just lost," he told me. Then they call his name to play another match. He played it and won it, and thus, "won" the tournament. Then he said, "It's not my job to keep track of the games won."

Well, it is my job to keep track of the people around me who cheat in order to win, as this lowers the chances of them from harming me.

Both he and Earl are right about following (some of) the rules; they are both wrong if they think it didn't cost them anything.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Williebetmore]

Open letter to all reading this thread. So far I've heard no mention of the word "integrity". It is not commonly used in discussions about pool or pool playing. As long as such conspicuous breaking of the rules continues to be tolerated, I think the sport (as played by the men at least) will continue to have low credibility and very little integrity.

I also think that Earl probably does belong in the HOF, but I personally have not and would not vote for him.

I also think that golf is light years ahead of pool in promoting honor, integrity, and good sportsmanship - all three are reasons that the game is perceived in a positive light. Yes, lots of people like the bad boys; but the vast majority of the fans are rooting for the good guys; no sport succeeds without them.

For those who think that golfers only call penalties on themselves because there is a lot of money in the game - I couldn't disagree more. There are too numerous to count instances of players calling penalties on themselves at tremendous cost (loss of tournament, loss of exempt status, loss of tour card). I'll bet D'maker knows the specifics if anyone is interested. When you call a penalty on yourself, at great cost to your pocketbook or your ego, then you know you have arrived as a sportsman (dare I say human being?).

For Just Play: Here's hoping the next time you are hill-hill for the cash that your opponent fouls obviously, refuses to acknowledge it, and then wins. I'm sure you will be happy with the outcome. I wouldn't normally wish that on someone, but it sounds like you think its okay (I sure don't).

 

[sjm]

First of all, Earl did not cheat. He did, however, show a lack of integrity as a competitor. At first, I was surprised that some chose to defend him on the basis that others in the same situation would have acted with a simliar lack of integrity. His tendency to bring public discredit to the sport of pool in no way diminshes Earl's wonderful acheivements as a competitor, and he's a deserving Hall of Famer as a player.

Still, one of the stupidest concepts in pool that reenforces the negative image of pool players is that "if you snooze, you lose". In plain english, this means that unless you are caught in a foul or a rules infraction, you are not accountable. It's a concept professed by many, in fact most, top players, but in the end, it serves to encourage, if not institutionalize, bad sportsmanship in pool.

For taking it in stride, I give Charlie Williams a thumbs up. For publicly lambasting Earl for his improper behavior, I give Allen Hopkins a thumbs up. To Earl and all others who don't have the integrity to call a foul on themselves, you're draggng down your sport's image, and I hope you'll change your ways.

 

[cardiac kid]

Many years ago at the December Reno Open, Earl was playing Ted Ito. Ted is one of the nicest, most honest players around (ttbomk). Earl got locked behind a ball at hill hill. He kicked at the next numbered ball, grazed another by accident, hit the correct ball and drove the nine uptable into the pocket. He shouted with joy and took his cue apart. Everyone watching the game saw the ball move. Earl refused to admit he had fouled. Ted would most certainly have run out from that position. Ted shrugged his shoulders and walked away.

From what I've read here, I would say there is a pattern. Earl may be one of the greatest. I would also guess "The Deacon" would have boxed his ears! Perhaps his punishment should be exclusion from the "HOF" until his career ends, admits his errors or dies. If you snooze, you lose should not be the operable term in these situations.

 

[Williebetmore]

For taking it in stride, I give Charlie Williams a thumbs up. For publicly lambasting Earl for his improper behavior, I give Allen Hopkins a thumbs up. .

SJM,
You are correct. I couldn't have admired Allen Hopkins more; he is to be commended for stating his disapproval in such unequivocal terms. Charlie Williams handled it perfectly in not allowing such behavior to affect him - it was like watching polar opposites.

 

[satman]

Lots of views here and a lot of very valid points. I guess all of the players should stop and think about what they intend for the future of our sport. To continue this path we've been struggling with for years or to clean things up and hold people accountable for their dishonesty and lack of sportsmanship. But how do you punish someone when there is no actual tour to bar them from. Sam

 

[recoveryjones]

I see that after reading the threads that some obviously didn't like what Earl did (knowingly or unknowingly) and that's cool. But I'm also glad to see that everyone is sensible enough to see that his accomplishments on the table can't be ignored. No-one said that he shouldn't get into the HOF, even though maybe some don't want to see him get there. Everyone basically knows he belongs. We've got a smart, knowledgable group here at AZ. RJ

 

[dafatman]

Pool Players......

Ever hear a story about AH going into a pool room wearing a work uniform, carrying a bag of groceries in each arm and asking "does anyone want to play some cheap while I wait for a cab" and then proceeding to clean up the pool room? I'm sure, as stated before, that there is some "dirt" in all of their
collective closets, and if it was taken into consideration for HOF qualification, maybe you or I could get in!!!LOL

 

[christyd]

Woody,
You are playing with the WRONG PLAYERS. In our league, we play all ball fouls, and we call them on ourselves (and our opponents are supposed to call it if they see it and we don't notice it). Anyone jerking around, trying to get away with a foul is OUT OF THE LEAGUE. I have never seen even one player try to get away with a foul (though I know several of the poorer players will occasionally agree to ignore object ball fouls; but NONE of the better players ever do this to my knowledge).

Williebetmore

I believe the straight pool matches Woody 968 were referring to were accu-stat matches consisting of Varner, Hopkins, Sigel, etc.............. !!!

 

[Renegade]

Man, i didn't know all these things about Earl. My estimation of him as a sportsman just went way down. Still, I admire his competitive spirit and I think it is this competitive nature which drives him to win, at any cost. Even if in costs him his integrity.....

 

[Rude Dog]

Sure, Earl deserves to be in the Hall Of Fame. How can anyone deny the fact that he's one of the best ever? But, with what happened in that game with Charlie by not calling the foul on himself, knowing that it's going to be on tv, he lost a lot more than just that game. He lost the respect of his fans, his peers, and hopefully, himself. One more thing, does it really surprise you? Not me. The guy is a cry baby, always has been, and always will be. If Charlie had done it Earl would have gone berzerk, we all know that. The difference is, Charlie wouldn't do it because he has self-dignity, as he showed by not letting it get to him when the call didn't go his way. I always say, "The balls never lie." The only way I would ever vote for Earl to get in the Hall Of Fame was if he was the only one on the ballot, and then it would still be tough. He deserves to be in though, no doubt about it. So does Pete Rose, IMO. Oh yeah, so do I and everyone else here on AZBilliards. Peace, John.

 

[cueman]

Was the foul a foul by touching another ball besides the cue ball? If so, most rules state that it is cue ball fouls only unless a referee is watching. So Earl's point is valid. He was not watching, so that makes it cue ball fouls only. Only the ref can call that type of foul. I didn't see it, but if it was another ball besides the cue ball that moved then Earl is right in my opinion. Earl knows the rules will always be used against him, so he will take it when they favor him.

 

[B.J.the bandit]

Earl

This is easy, when your in a joint[bar] playin for your life anything is ok,If you get out the door whith your skin,& money you win!! "BUT: When your playing at a event in front of T.V. Play with a lot of class. RIGHT?? B.J.{from the old days]

 

[woody_968]

Woody,
You are playing with the WRONG PLAYERS. In our league, we play all ball fouls, and we call them on ourselves (and our opponents are supposed to call it if they see it and we don't notice it). Anyone jerking around, trying to get away with a foul is OUT OF THE LEAGUE. I have never seen even one player try to get away with a foul (though I know several of the poorer players will occasionally agree to ignore object ball fouls; but NONE of the better players ever do this to my knowledge).

Sorry for not making myself clear Willie, as Christy pointed out I was talking about PRO matches that include some hall of fame names. When they fouled and nothing was called they did not stop the match and correct the ref. Im not saying I agree with it or not, just saying Earl is not the only one.

On a side note, the few players that I play 14.1 with would call a foul on themselves. Now if your offering to give me some info on a 14.1 league I would be willing to listen

Woody

 

[berry]

I haven't seen the event on TV (if anyone can send me a copy so I can show it in our poolroom, then please mail me) but all other crap about Earl is getting the wrong way.

Earl is a caractar that makes people watch this game and travel many miles to see a tournament with him in it. All discussions about grazy events in this sport have at least once or twice the name Earl in it.
His finger extencions / flowers for Michaela / talking trash about jumpsticks / the introduction of the breakbox and his trashtalking about the crowd or players.
All these things get things going and are a contribution to the sport. Like Ronny o sullivan for snooker and Dennis Rodman with basketball.

Not calling the foul is not polite but face it, I cannot remember a football player who went to the ref to tell him he was holding and that he forgot to trow his flag? I cannot remember an ace that was not in called out by the player (it happens but almost never). btw I think that it is not a foul when a ref doesn't see it.

On the discussion if Earl the Pearl Strickland belongs in the Hall of Fame?
Yes!!! He won the WPC a couple of times and won almost every tournament.


Just my 2 c,

Berry

 

[DaveK]

Was the foul a foul by touching another ball besides the cue ball? If so, most rules state that it is cue ball fouls only unless a referee is watching. So Earl's point is valid. He was not watching, so that makes it cue ball fouls only. Only the ref can call that type of foul. I didn't see it, but if it was another ball besides the cue ball that moved then Earl is right in my opinion. Earl knows the rules will always be used against him, so he will take it when they favor him.

By this logic the rules change depending on whether the ref can see particular balls or not. Since there is a player at the table, and none I've seen are transparent (?), some areas of the table will always be 'unwatched'.

The match did have a ref, didn't it ?

Dave

 

[Williebetmore]

Sorry for not making myself clear Willie, as Christy pointed out I was talking about PRO matches that include some hall of fame names. When they fouled and nothing was called they did not stop the match and correct the ref. Im not saying I agree with it or not, just saying Earl is not the only one.

Woody

Woodman,
I have somewhere close to 100 Accu-Stats video's, including almost all of the straight pool catalogue, and I've never seen even one episode of cheating or marginal behavior from any of the great straight pool players, and I've seen several incidences of players calling fouls on themselves (Jimmy Fusco for one). I did see Johnny Archer get away with some marginal behavior on a 9-ball tape, but a professional friend assures me Johnny is always above board.
I would love to know who exactly you are referring to if you can remember the details.

I have heard many apocryphal stories about Willie Mosconi's behavior (ie. dressing down spectators and little kids at exhibitions), but I have always taken them with a grain of salt and placed them in the same class as the other urban legends (perhaps spawned by jealousy). In his autobiography Willie talked about the VITAL importance of exhibitions in promoting the game and in connecting with the fans - he did more exhibitions than probably anyone that ever lived (as a representative of a corporation). He enjoyed the exhibitions more than competing (no pressure). The degenerate pool gamblers from Kansas City who saw him give many exhibitions laugh at the thought of him ever barking at spectators at an exhibition (though he did insist on good behavior from fans and players at competitions); they told me, "Don't believe it for a second." Until I wake up in a strange hotel room with a kidney removed I think I'll continue to think Mosconi was a gentleman (though definitely bitter at the end).