Do You Think Handicapped Tourneys Ruined Pool

lncanada9

lncanada9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I personnaly think that all these handicapped tourneys ruined pool. I think it maked players these days lazy in the fact of wanting to get better. I read a post about all these young players from other countries winning big tournaments. Is our country falling off pool? I think yes and because of the handicap. Most players dont participate in "open" tourneys anymore because they have to play "Good" to win and they know that in a week or to they can play in another tournament and get a big spot from someone. and still win alot of money. What ever happened to having to "paying your dues" when it came to pool. We, as in "our country" used to dominate in all sports. Now its just people getting by to try to win a quick buck without anyone thinking they can play. STOP BEING LAZY PLAYERS AND GET YOUR A@@ OUT THERE AND PRACTICE!!!!!! You will be rewarded in the end and feel better about yourself for at least trying to be the best you can be.
 
I disagree about handicapping ruining pool. Playing straight up week after week is going to get frustrating for the larger percentage of players. Handicapping gives all the players hope of actually winning. If it makes the better players lazy, that is something they can personally address. If I am in a tournament and have to give up 2 or 3 on the wire to a less skilled player, I tell myself I have to play my best game to "come from behind". Handicapping doesn't make players lazy...players let themselves become lazy.
Steve
 
I agree :)

It takes away a lot of chances that lower skilled players would have to really rate their game and see where they are.

I won't play anything that is "handi-crapped" mainly because giving up the last 7 in a race to 5 for a $100 is not my view of playing even a bar tournament. I had a room in California (not mentioning name) where the owner told me that if I ran a rack I was out....figure that one out.

Most better players I know won't bother with handicapped tournaments, but I don't believe they ruined anything but the learning opportunities for the lower players. Tournaments are a way for them to get to play heads up with the great local players for a low cost.

Everytime someone does beat me it makes me want to get better yet. :)
 
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Yes I believe your right. Handicapping is good for some sports and it is also good in some cases for pool( more people playing). But the quality of play has been effected because people now a days always want a spot of some sort. I had to learn how to play playing the champs in my area. I am very thankful for that. I also learned a lot about racking in those days. :) I'm constantly giving up a spot. I say play till you cant stand up then play some more. There is no easy way to get good unless you work for it.
 
lncanada9 said:
I personnaly think that all these handicapped tourneys ruined pool. I think it maked players these days lazy in the fact of wanting to get better. I read a post about all these young players from other countries winning big tournaments. Is our country falling off pool? I think yes and because of the handicap. Most players dont participate in "open" tourneys anymore because they have to play "Good" to win and they know that in a week or to they can play in another tournament and get a big spot from someone. and still win alot of money. What ever happened to having to "paying your dues" when it came to pool. We, as in "our country" used to dominate in all sports. Now its just people getting by to try to win a quick buck without anyone thinking they can play. STOP BEING LAZY PLAYERS AND GET YOUR A@@ OUT THERE AND PRACTICE!!!!!! You will be rewarded in the end and feel better about yourself for at least trying to be the best you can be.
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Welcome to the situation that comes and goes in most all pool rooms around the country, and bar rooms. Until a national/international handicap system is in place it will 'always' be as you speak. They come and they always go away, its the nature of the beast.
 
pooltchr said:
I disagree about handicapping ruining pool. Playing straight up week after week is going to get frustrating for the larger percentage of players. Handicapping gives all the players hope of actually winning. If it makes the better players lazy, that is something they can personally address. If I am in a tournament and have to give up 2 or 3 on the wire to a less skilled player, I tell myself I have to play my best game to "come from behind". Handicapping doesn't make players lazy...players let themselves become lazy.
Steve
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It makes the lesser players lazy.
Why get better if they can luck it out with two on the wire?
The better ones have to overcome greater odds.

Give a guy 2 on the wire in a race to 5 and he snaps the 9.
He (or she) needs only to pull out 2 more games.
Then they have the nerve to feel proud of winning.
The first tournament I ever won was handicapped in my favor.
The win felt empty. I haven't played in another handicapped tournament since. Throw me in with a champ, and when we're all done I'll know exactly where my game stands.

With handicapping, when you come in first, you haven't really won.
 
I can see your point on players being 'lazy' - there's also the potential sandbagging factor, i.e. players specifically trying not to improve so as to raise their handicap. (See any league-related topic on these forums for more on that :D)

But - if all tournaments were straight up - then the best players would do even better, and the lower-end players would do even worse - which would mean some of the lower-end players would simply stop participating.

Wouldn't that be considered ruining pool as well?

"Paying your dues" isn't really the best concept in this case - you can have one guy who's played for twenty years, and basically is not going to get any better than he is, no matter what - and a kid who's been playing for a year, but has that natural talent, and will whip up on the first guy 100% of the time. I would consider the first guy to have "paid his dues" far more than the new kid - but yet, he's gonna lose to the kid every time.

I think the semi-happy medium between straight-up tournaments and mixed-handicap tournaments is separate tournaments based on handicap. I just played in my first Valley singles tournament - all the C's were in one pile, the B's in another, A's in another, etc. Each group had a straight-up race (C's to 3, B's to 4, etc). There's still some range in skill in each group. But this tournament had a couple hundred folks in it - you can't really have separate brackets for smaller tournaments where you get twenty folks.
 
I do agree of a handicapp in certain players. Lets say players that only have been playing two years and under. The ones that dont play good at all, and those that just start. I dont agree when you have a guy that can run racks. One simple example....we have a tour that plays every other week. handicapped. of course, that lowest is 4 and highest is 7. It is 8-ball on bar table, alternate the break, race to your handicapp. I go to 7 and the other player was a 4. He has played several times so he wasnt just one of those guys that snuck in. Well we just played in an open tournament and he beat me 9 to 2. This was winner breaks. He run 7 racks on me from the gate. Great playing. have to give him credit. Now if I want to play in the handicapp 8-ball tourney, I have to spot him 3 games on the wire, alternate break. If I had to play him in the weekly 9-ball tournament, I have to spot him the 3 out....wild. How nice is that. lol let me remind you this is all on bar tables.
 
Then that tells me that the TD should be watching this guy and adjust his handicap. It sounds like he's playing well above the skill level of his current handicap.
 
I think the greatest problem with handicaps is that many people can't stop thinking about them. You can go through an entire list of things that people talk about and almost none of them are good:

1. I'm playing a higher/lower-ranked player. I'm supposed to win/lose.

If they plan on losing, they don't know what to do with themselves when they actually have a chance. If they plan on winning, they often break their cues when they lose.

2. I'm not good enough to be at my current rating.

Yeah, I don't think an explanation is necessary here.

3. I'm really good for my rating.

Unless you're Efren Reyes, you're bad. It's just a matter of how bad you are. Some, moreso than others. There is always room to improve.

4. My goal is to be (the next level up)

This isn't grade-school. You can skip levels. Hell, you can reinvent this game if all you want is perfection.

5. My favorite: I lost because of the handicap.

You simply fail to take responsibility for your losses. You dismiss them as being an anomoly that was only possible because the person who ranked the two of you got it all wrong. You don't admit that perhaps, you could have played better and focus only on how you are "supposed to play" which is a ludicrous thought in and of itself.
 
lncanada9 said:
I personnaly think that all these handicapped tourneys ruined pool. I think it maked players these days lazy in the fact of wanting to get better. I read a post about all these young players from other countries winning big tournaments. Is our country falling off pool? I think yes and because of the handicap. Most players dont participate in "open" tourneys anymore because they have to play "Good" to win and they know that in a week or to they can play in another tournament and get a big spot from someone. and still win alot of money. What ever happened to having to "paying your dues" when it came to pool. We, as in "our country" used to dominate in all sports. Now its just people getting by to try to win a quick buck without anyone thinking they can play. STOP BEING LAZY PLAYERS AND GET YOUR A@@ OUT THERE AND PRACTICE!!!!!! You will be rewarded in the end and feel better about yourself for at least trying to be the best you can be.
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I do not believe that handiacapping tournament play has ruined pool. In fact it probalby increases participation actually helping pool grow as a sport.

However, if a player is serious about the game, wants to improve and compete at a high level, handicapping is not the way to go. All you will do is plateau, get bored and quit or become a social player.

To improve, you must always put yourself out there against "better" competition to push yourself to the next level.
 
Those who need a comfort zone will stay in handicapped tournaments.

Those who have the drive to be champions will seek out better players/tougher tournaments and have no fear of the challenges presented by either.
 
handcapped tourny

Well here is old man opinion,, i agree than there is a need for no-handiccap tourny, but to help the young i understand the hand-cap,i have them twice week at my place, and they work out very wellwensday 15-25 players sunday nite 25-45 players , and a good time by all,been doing it for 8yr i myself go to the none hand-cap tourny and play, knowing my day in the sun has passed, but my love for the game has not. old man opinion!!! STICK KYTLE:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
 
Larry it sounds like you have a tournament with a bad handicap system. 4 to 7 ranking only leaves alot of overlap in playing ability.

The best handicap system I have seen is the one used at Hollywood billiards in south florida. Its rated 4-15 (Stevie Moore recently snapped it off as a 15) with the rating indicating the number of games you have to win (9ball) to win your match. Strangers get rated at least as an 8 and more if you look like you can run out. Basically the tournament makes strangers out run the nuts and protects those who play every week.

There is of course problems with this handicapping, mostly underrating and overrating. It all works out though and every week this tournament gets 30-40 players. The room owner deducts a few buck from each entry and uses it towards a $1000 added 3x a year tournament. With calcutta this bigger tournament pays around 1500-3000.
 
I would rather get murdered in a tournament by a stronger player than "beat" him or her with some sort of handicap. This is why I am very much anti-league as well. There is no way I am gonna gamble with the top tier players in my area "even up" but I can see how I match up in tournaments at least and I enjoy the challenge...even when it means I get some splinters from the rack at times:eek: :D
 
Being a player who never played competitive pool and started in the APA as the lowest possible SL, I disagree that it makes people lazy.

I've gone from a SL2 to a SL5 in about three years, working full time with a family. I don't have time to dedicate days or weeks to practice, and I will never be able to compete head to head with some of the best local shooters.

Now, I've also seen career APAers who have been SL5 for years, since I've been in the league.
I don't know how people don't want to improve their game; making one or two balls is fun, making four or five is a thrill, but running a rack is the most fun you can have.

It's the people, not the handicap that makes players want to improve.

Also, when the same people show up every week and win a non handicap tournament, people stop showing up.
 
Well

lncanada9 said:
I do agree of a handicapp in certain players. Lets say players that only have been playing two years and under. The ones that dont play good at all, and those that just start. I dont agree when you have a guy that can run racks. One simple example....we have a tour that plays every other week. handicapped. of course, that lowest is 4 and highest is 7. It is 8-ball on bar table, alternate the break, race to your handicapp. I go to 7 and the other player was a 4. He has played several times so he wasnt just one of those guys that snuck in. Well we just played in an open tournament and he beat me 9 to 2. This was winner breaks. He run 7 racks on me from the gate. Great playing. have to give him credit. Now if I want to play in the handicapp 8-ball tourney, I have to spot him 3 games on the wire, alternate break. If I had to play him in the weekly 9-ball tournament, I have to spot him the 3 out....wild. How nice is that. lol let me remind you this is all on bar tables.
Click to expand...

I am an old timer, and handicaps use to be by 'Money rating 1-10' in the old days, then it expanded to 1-12 for a 9 ball rating. Now pool rooms handicap without an ounce of knowledge of a player's TRUE skill level.
They think if someone wins, raise them up. They consistly underrate lessor players (remember these are the ones that can improve more and faster than the top levels), and they have a tendency to overrate the best players around per their true skill level. (example, rating someone a 15 when they are really an 11 just because they have won in the past).

Many pool rooms work, on purpose or inadvertently, with their handicap systems to 'spread the wealth around' or to 'work it till the winners are in the middle of the pack' and think they have done a good job .... lol

Yes, handicapping has benefits and drawbacks. Look at all the 3,4,5's happy where they are in league because they are a tough 3,4, or 5, but a weak or normal 4,5, or 6 respectively. Why do you think there is so much sandbagging going on? You have to to survive ...

Handicapping is okay for local tournaments, but not for a tournament considered Regional, State, or National, or International. I have developed a handicapping system based on 10 ball (Bowliards) that can be converted to any league handicapping system equilivent scores. (for 8 or 9 ball).

I play in weekly tournaments where I have to go 6-2 against my opponents in 8 ball, and 7-3 in 9 ball. TD's are nortorious for not considering that lessor players improve more and faster than higher players, and that lessor players have more propensity to get lucky than better players. Lessor players bang the 9 more, where better players' game is controlled at all times, thus less chance for luck.
 
Snapshot: Eeeeeerrr That Is What I Said I Agree With You< You People Go Out And Find You A None Hand_cap< Let The Ones That Want Play As They Please!!!!!simple As That
 
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