Do You Think Handicapped Tourneys Ruined Pool

lncanada9 said:
I personnaly think that all these handicapped tourneys ruined pool. I think it maked players these days lazy in the fact of wanting to get better. I read a post about all these young players from other countries winning big tournaments. Is our country falling off pool? I think yes and because of the handicap. Most players dont participate in "open" tourneys anymore because they have to play "Good" to win and they know that in a week or to they can play in another tournament and get a big spot from someone. and still win alot of money. What ever happened to having to "paying your dues" when it came to pool. We, as in "our country" used to dominate in all sports. Now its just people getting by to try to win a quick buck without anyone thinking they can play. STOP BEING LAZY PLAYERS AND GET YOUR A@@ OUT THERE AND PRACTICE!!!!!! You will be rewarded in the end and feel better about yourself for at least trying to be the best you can be.
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Larry, I wonder where and how you developed your game? Who were your influences and where did your game grow? How much did you practice--now or at any time?

For those of you who not seen Larry Nevel play, let me tell you, in 40 years of pool, I have seen maybe 3-4 players with the depth and breadth of skills Larry possesses. He doesn't simply have a hard break; he is also frighteningly knowledgable, has great touch and superb shotmaking skills.

By the way, Larry, when are you planning a return to the Greenville area. I've heard you are entered in the Viking event next month in Duluth, GA. True?
 
uwate said:
The best handicap system I have seen is the one used at Hollywood billiards in south florida. Its rated 4-15 (Stevie Moore recently snapped it off as a 15) with the rating indicating the number of games you have to win (9ball) to win your match. Strangers get rated at least as an 8 and more if you look like you can run out. Basically the tournament makes strangers out run the nuts and protects those who play every week.
QUOTE]

I played in that tourny when I was out that way this summer (as recommended by AZBer's) and I was put in as an 8. I played the TD's son and was beating him badly when he quit, it was 7-0. Some folks who watched that said that I shouldn't have done that (I didn't have much to do with it, I mean I played ok but he dogged some easy runs). So of course they moved me up to a 9. I got beat 7-0 the next match, no kidding. Still, it was a nice pool hall, I'd go there again. Very much a player's room.

Back to the thread, I think young champions will go for the prize and do what they have to do to get to the top. Handicapping just helps everyone else have a shot. I don't think it hurts top level play.

Alex
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handicapped tourneys

i am a truck driver getting ready to go out the door and drive all night. full time job- no time to get in top stroke whatever that would have been. realistically i know i am never going to beat a tony watson or jeff abernathy or tony morrison or larry nevel or (fill in blank______________) heads up!
in a handicap tourney i can play the likes of these guys and have gotten my but handed to me on a green felt platter. i did get the fun of shooting with them. it was and is worth it to me!
i have the time and money to go and get a little stress relief and entertainment at the local tourney sunday nights. handicapping gets my entry fee and cacutta money. happy to go and play knowing odds are still against me playing guys who are in stroke AND NEED THE MONEY!!!!!!!!i have beaten and been beaten by higher and lower ranked players. good times were had by me.
i will try to go back again and again. may get lucky, right?
 
practicing

Larry, I wonder where and how you developed your game? Who were your influences and where did your game grow? How much did you practice--now or at any time?

For those of you who not seen Larry Nevel play, let me tell you, in 40 years of pool, I have seen maybe 3-4 players with the depth and breadth of skills Larry possesses. He doesn't simply have a hard break; he is also frighteningly knowledgable, has great touch and superb shotmaking skills.

By the way, Larry, when are you planning a return to the Greenville area. I've heard you are entered in the Viking event next month in Duluth, GA. True?

I started playing pool in a bar in Wisconsin at the age of 7. (kinda tells ya what my father was doing) lol. I pretty much developed my fundamentals there. When I started going to the pool hall I was around 14 years old. I would practice, practice, practice playing everyone I could. I worked as a bus boy at a Italian place and made about 50-80 bucks a night working til 11pm. I would rush to the pool hall and find anyone that would gamble with me, and put up all the money I had to play under pressure. Most of the time I definately had the worst of the game and lost. But, I was one of the lucky people that could learn something from nothing. I learned everytime I lost, I learned everytime I won. I was getting pretty good at the age of 15 I had run over 100 balls of straight pool quite a few times. I would watch everyone play. Even the players way under me in talent, because I could learn from them also. I didnt have any great players to look up to or to learn from so I had to find ways to learn from others. If I had any advise to anyone in pool is when you practice, play for real! Bad practice is worse than no practice at all. The only difference between a player that runs 100 balls and a player that runs 500 balls is simple. The one who runs 500 balls KNOWS that there is NEVER an easy shot. You play in tournaments to win....so practice to win!!!
 
Handicaps

A good handicap system is totally controlled by the integrity of the Tournament Director! He must not listen to the "sour grapes" that the favorite few always complain about. They are so used to winning with unfair handicaps that they just expect to get the money. Many players who show up for the event, just want a fair chance. They really do not expect to win. They usually just want to "CASH".
In many events, the local players run into some good out of town players, who they are not used to seeing. Immediately , there are complaints about how good the new player is, so the TD jumps the new player up to the max handicap and that player never shows up agin. They feel they are not wanted in this tourney.
My rating is anywhere from a 7 to a 12 depending on where I am competing at the moment. My buddy is barely a 3 or 4 in the lowest form. We have gone to a tourney and the TD demanded that he must play at the highest level just because he is not known. They do not watch him for even a few minutes...he is so bad that he could not run out if they were all in front of the pockets>>>REALLY! So, he does not play and sometimes we both just leave...he just wants to play in a tourney with me.
Next main problem...because the local TD must get large fields in his venue, he thinks he must keep "HIS" players with a lower number so the out-of-towners cannot come in and win the $$$. BUT YET, the event is advertised in local papers to get those other players.
A good long term regular tourney event is in action because of the honesty of the TD who takes care of these problems.
There are some very good TD's out there and I have seen many more TD's who ARE NOT.
 
Tourney handicaps

I think I have solved most of my tourney problems. The lower rated players do not play for much money...the higher the handicap numbers >the higher the $$$ allowed in the tourney. If a lessor player wants to play, he can just jump in and fire it up to see how he does. The higher rated players won't play in the little pots, it's just not worth their effort to drive all the way to a small tourney just to win a few dollars.
In some areas they have , for example: 7 and under tourneys (ratings run from 4 to 10) with prize money at $1500 added...you don't think that many players are going to sand bag if at all possible...sure they are!
Especially when at the next level, 8 and over tourneys, there is only $500 added to the pot.
 
I believe that for the most part good players practiced and played hard to get to where they are skill wise. I don't think they should be punished for all their hard work by having to give up incredible spots to other people who do not have the drive, desire, dedication or time to get better,they chose to work or have families or other pursuits and not put their energy into pool.

How would you like to show up to work one day and have your boss tell you that today you have to compete against a kid from the mail room ( no offence to kids from the mail room) for your pay for that day, on top of that you have to do four times your regular work and the kid only has to do half his regular work, first one done gets the CASH!!

I think that if you play for fun, it should be just that FUN. If you want to play in a tournament just enjoy the experience. Why should you get pissed off and not play in the tournament again bucause A topstick ran a bunch of racks and you lost, if he came to your job and challenged you he would be beaten also. So sit back and enjoy watching the beauty of his play, if you are there to make extra money, go back to school or get a second job.


Bern
 
Big Bad Bern said:
How would you like to show up to work one day and have your boss tell you that today you have to compete against a kid from the mail room ( no offence to kids from the mail room) for your pay for that day, on top of that you have to do four times your regular work and the kid only has to do half his regular work, first one done gets the CASH!!



Bern
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Here's another way of looking at it. You interview for one of two jobs. You are qualified for the $50k job and the other person interviewing is qualified for the $8 per hour job. You get the better job, but you are expected to perform at a much higher level. It's because you have shown that you are capable of performing at the higher level. That seems fair to me. I have to be a top performer if I want to get the cash.
Steve
 
Its all about location

In my opinion, handicapped tournaments are good for areas of the country that have low population or a low population of open level players. They are very good at a local level.

However, I love open tournaments at the regional level. I enjoy playing against better players in an open tournament. If I cash, I feel a greater sense of accomplishment.

It must be duly noted, however, that a weekly handicapped tournament at a local pool room has many advantages. It levels the playing field which attracts more people to the game. In west kentucky, where I live, there are several weekly handicapped tournaments that I participate in. I am a B level player. I get weight from some and give weight to some. These are good tournaments and allows everyone to have a shot at winning.

What we must realize that some people simply cant win an open tournament but they still want to participate. Without handicapped tournaments, these players might give up the game all together due to frustration.

There is a happy medium between open tournaments and handicapped tournaments. Both are important for the future of the game but you cant have one without the other. They feed one and another and make the game better overall.
 
Is this really that big of a problem?

I'm sorry if I'm a little bit ignorant on this topic, but I don't see a lot of handicapped tournaments in my area. How common are they around the country?

Now, I don't mean the leagues. I know the leagues are handicapped and I think that serves a valuable purpose.
However, when it comes to tournaments, I know of only one small weekly handicapped tournament in my area. Other weekly tournaments and all regional tournaments, that I know of in my area, are not handicapped.
 
I think it depends on the area that you are in....I can think of at least 4 weekly handicapped tournaments within 25 miles of my house in Paducah, Kentucky.
 
pooltchr said:
Here's another way of looking at it. You interview for one of two jobs. You are qualified for the $50k job and the other person interviewing is qualified for the $8 per hour job. You get the better job, but you are expected to perform at a much higher level. It's because you have shown that you are capable of performing at the higher level. That seems fair to me. I have to be a top performer if I want to get the cash.
Steve
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Although I respect your opinion on the subject POOLTCHR, I must disagree.
I think the proper comparision in your scenario would be for the boss to flip a coin between the 50k earner and the $8 an hour person because although the 50k guy can perform the job better the boss wants to be fair to both applicants so everyone can be happy. The top performer can lose by random chance ( think fluked nine etc.) because skill level has been removed from the equation.

If you worked hard to become a top performer in your chosen profession you deserve to be rewarded and celibrated not punished.

Bern
 
Bern, I disagree with your disagreeing. :D

The stronger player of the two *should* win the match - no matter what the race is, how many more games the stronger player has to win - his superior skill over the other player should mean he wins every game.

A match isn't a coin toss between two equals - it's a series of games between two non-equals (assuming, of course, skill and handicaps are different between the two). You really have to measure the issue on the individual game level. And when you do that, the stronger player has the edge.
 
Alex Kanapilly said:
uwate said:
The best handicap system I have seen is the one used at Hollywood billiards in south florida. Its rated 4-15 (Stevie Moore recently snapped it off as a 15) with the rating indicating the number of games you have to win (9ball) to win your match. Strangers get rated at least as an 8 and more if you look like you can run out. Basically the tournament makes strangers out run the nuts and protects those who play every week.
QUOTE]

I played in that tourny when I was out that way this summer (as recommended by AZBer's) and I was put in as an 8. I played the TD's son and was beating him badly when he quit, it was 7-0. Some folks who watched that said that I shouldn't have done that (I didn't have much to do with it, I mean I played ok but he dogged some easy runs). So of course they moved me up to a 9. I got beat 7-0 the next match, no kidding. Still, it was a nice pool hall, I'd go there again. Very much a player's room.

Back to the thread, I think young champions will go for the prize and do what they have to do to get to the top. Handicapping just helps everyone else have a shot. I don't think it hurts top level play.

Alex
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Years ago in the same area a tourney structure like you stated was put in place, they would add another game to the winner of the event and eventually it became impossible to win. The inherent flaw in most (not all) is the way in which the room TD or owner justifies ones handicapp. It's a fine line to walk and without keeping stats and W/L percentages and thus making it fair its eventual demise ot decrease in player numbers is inevitable. There has been only one structured handicapp system for 9-ball that has worked and its in place at Reno twice a year. It's been going on for 20 years or so. USPPA/Gene Story/Annagoni now running the event.
What usually kills most of these events is the insider whining of the weekly attendees and the politics that go along with the regulars and them Having to play the outsiders. Handicapping can be great if its fair too all players and definitely will push you to improve and give one a chance to play players way above ones skill level with fairness.
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lncanada9 said:
I personnaly think that all these handicapped tourneys ruined pool. I think it maked players these days lazy in the fact of wanting to get better. I read a post about all these young players from other countries winning big tournaments. Is our country falling off pool? I think yes and because of the handicap. Most players dont participate in "open" tourneys anymore because they have to play "Good" to win and they know that in a week or to they can play in another tournament and get a big spot from someone. and still win alot of money. What ever happened to having to "paying your dues" when it came to pool. We, as in "our country" used to dominate in all sports. Now its just people getting by to try to win a quick buck without anyone thinking they can play. STOP BEING LAZY PLAYERS AND GET YOUR A@@ OUT THERE AND PRACTICE!!!!!! You will be rewarded in the end and feel better about yourself for at least trying to be the best you can be.
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I haven't read every post so I apologize if somone else brought this up, but I really don't think it affects the top players at all. In fact I think you can argue it makes them tougher. Think about it, no one gets to the top without learning how to give up big weight. Some of the spots pros give the rest of us is ridiculous, they are used to it. If a young up and comer can't do that, he's not going to make it to the top anyway.

Alex
 
Rich R. said:
Is this really that big of a problem?

I'm sorry if I'm a little bit ignorant on this topic, but I don't see a lot of handicapped tournaments in my area. How common are they around the country?
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Rich, Arizona has their own state wide rating system. Just about every tournament uses it, except for bars. Something of a bother because you have to get rated before you can play in most pool hall tournaments. The list of players and their rating used to be online, was thousands of people. Also there are different schems for your handicap using the rating number.

It does seem to get more players in tournaments, there are a LOT of beginning players in them. Some pool halls even have tournaments every night.
 
Well ....

It would be alright if it was done 'fairly', but it is at the discretion of the TD most of the time, and most TD's aren't qualified to rate players. Most TD's are not considered for their qualifications, just the fact that they can run a tournament..... period

Handicapping is the 'Union' in Pool. You don't overrate the importance or value of something of what the person brings to it. You don't pay a 'Deburrer' $20 an hour for an $8 an hour job ($8 being the value of that job to the company), just because they have a 'Union'. Or the $68 an hour job in Detroit for a 'skilled worker'. In doing so, you 'underrate' what should be the more important job levels in the company (the ones that got a college education or more, or the players that 'paid their dues' by getting to a higher level). See my point - Handicapping creates a disparity among how the levels of play are considered and treated. The lower levels rewarded, the upper levels punished all for participations sake, kind of like leagues.

Kind of like giving some runners a head start in the Decathlon because their past times are not as fast as some of the others ... lol
 
Larry your right on the money. When i first started i wanted to win it outright and would'nt take a spot now they can call it pride and they would be right in that statement. My saying is "If i can't beat you striaght up then i can't beat ya" i'll just have to get better by playing in tournements and practice until my game steps up to yours. People always want to start at the top rung of the ladder it seems that is a shame. But for me it's the improving that is most joyful i may never make it to the top but i will pay the proper dues to the best of my ability.
 
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