Do you try to "pop" the CB on the break?

[KMRUNOUT]

Thanks for the reply KMR,

I tried to write my post so my theory wasn't overstated. I believe that it is a good thing to put as much energy into the rack that you can with control. The more distance the balls roll the more time/distance they have to find a pocket. This is just one aspect of breaking--> learning how to read the rack and adjust your contact point for different gaps is way more important if you want to make balls on the break.



One reason why the breakspeed app isn't a good test method as it's based on the distance between the cue ball and the rack. (highly problematic variable for the users of the app) Even if you put the cue ball in the same exact spot and racked in the exact same spot depending on how much the cue ball leaves the table the distance traveled will be different.

Not to be nitpicky but I said it was a theory not a conclusion...

Dudley--> Always open to new information

Dudley, I like your attitude! Lots of good points here. First off, I agree that in 9 ball particularly, the rack itself is the single most important variable (or collection of variables). As for max power with control, I still believe that is an outdated approach. Certain gaps in the rack, for example, will yield different results at different speeds...so clearly it is more important to hit the speed you want, which may or may not be hard. Another thing to consider is that yes...while balls travelling farther may have a better chance to find a pocket...now your playing the break as a pure luck shot. Pocketing the corner ball or the one ball is where the skill of breaking is. It is far more direct than what might happen after a few seconds of balls rolling all over. Faster break speed by definition increases the uncertainty of the outcome of the break. An off center hit means that the cue ball will also roll farther and have a better chance to fall. Striving for control is great of course, but no one is 100%. I can drive at 85 mph on the highway with complete control. But *if* something happens, I am more likely to die in a crash at that speed. Finally, when the balls scatter, if they don't go in a pocket, they have to go somewhere. My experience says that I end up with a more clustered layout when I break hard. This is of course highly variable for each table, table size, etc. But when I break softer, the resulting layout is more predictable.

As for the app...I don't think the height of the cue ball on the break is enough to make a significant difference in the distance. We could do the math I suppose. However, the slight difference in distance is unlikely to net more than a 1mph difference, if that. I'm guessing here, but I really don't see the difference in distance being that much unless you're jumping the ball several inches in the air on the way to the rack...no one is saying to do that.

Anyway, great response...I wish more people could accept a question and just give their response instead of getting all bent out of shape over it. good threa, good discussion. Thanks!!

KMRUNOUT

 

[Dudley]

Dudley, I like your attitude! Lots of good points here. First off, I agree that in 9 ball particularly, the rack itself is the single most important variable (or collection of variables). As for max power with control, I still believe that is an outdated approach. Certain gaps in the rack, for example, will yield different results at different speeds...so clearly it is more important to hit the speed you want, which may or may not be hard. Another thing to consider is that yes...while balls travelling farther may have a better chance to find a pocket...now your playing the break as a pure luck shot. Pocketing the corner ball or the one ball is where the skill of breaking is. It is far more direct than what might happen after a few seconds of balls rolling all over. Faster break speed by definition increases the uncertainty of the outcome of the break. An off center hit means that the cue ball will also roll farther and have a better chance to fall. Striving for control is great of course, but no one is 100%. I can drive at 85 mph on the highway with complete control. But *if* something happens, I am more likely to die in a crash at that speed. Finally, when the balls scatter, if they don't go in a pocket, they have to go somewhere. My experience says that I end up with a more clustered layout when I break hard. This is of course highly variable for each table, table size, etc. But when I break softer, the resulting layout is more predictable.

As for the app...I don't think the height of the cue ball on the break is enough to make a significant difference in the distance. We could do the math I suppose. However, the slight difference in distance is unlikely to net more than a 1mph difference, if that. I'm guessing here, but I really don't see the difference in distance being that much unless you're jumping the ball several inches in the air on the way to the rack...no one is saying to do that.

Anyway, great response...I wish more people could accept a question and just give their response instead of getting all bent out of shape over it. good threa, good discussion. Thanks!!

KMRUNOUT

KMR,

It's funny how what you write means something different to someone else when they read it.. Being clear is very difficult when putting your thoughts on a forum.

On a good racking table--> There is no need to hit the balls hard. However when they aren't sticking together this all changes.

I agree with what you say about power.. I rarely break over 75% or so of my max under heat. Unless I'm feeling really good. Then I wind it up and hit em. For the most part I'm trying to hit the head ball square. And when that's working I'll add some more heat to it.

I don't know enough about the app to say anything intelligent about what affect the arc of the cue ball path or ball placement would have on the measured speed. But it is a "possibility" that it could be enough to skew the numbers. The question is how much. I have no clue.

Having an intimidating break does have some use--> If you have a good rock.

Good conversation buddy!

Dudley

 

[Banks]

My normal break switches between a few inches off the rail to a few from center. I try to get a solid hit and have experimented with draw, center, etc. Scratching has been a problem, even getting kicked in the side a bit. I gave the early suggestions a go the other night and jacked up a little to facilitate a pop. It could be the table for making balls on the break, but one of the biggest things I noticed was not as much kicking around of the CB.

Now, if you don't really need as much power to begin with, it could be beneficial to not have the CB kicked around and to clear up a lane for the balls. Does Dr Dave have video on this maybe? I'm using my phone and haven't checked back on all of the responses, just posting after checking out results from the other night.

 

[Dudley]

My normal break switches between a few inches off the rail to a few from center. I try to get a solid hit and have experimented with draw, center, etc. Scratching has been a problem, even getting kicked in the side a bit. I gave the early suggestions a go the other night and jacked up a little to facilitate a pop. It could be the table for making balls on the break, but one of the biggest things I noticed was not as much kicking around of the CB.

Now, if you don't really need as much power to begin with, it could be beneficial to not have the CB kicked around and to clear up a lane for the balls. Does Dr Dave have video on this maybe? I'm using my phone and haven't checked back on all of the responses, just posting after checking out results from the other night.

Good post. I agree 100%.

CB hop looks cool, and it is often an indicator of a powerful break, but is certainly not something one should not try to create (e.g., by elevating the cue) ... that just wastes energy.

The most important attributes of a good break are:
- getting a square hit on the 1 ball.
- using only as much power as you can control.
- squatting the rock as close to the center of the table as possible.

For info, advice, and demonstrations on how to do these things, see:

break technique and equipment advice resource page
CB hop and squat resource page
NV D.14 - Pool Break Technique Advice - from Vol-III of the Billiard University instructional DVD series

Enjoy,
Dave

Banks,

He posted some links earlier in the thread..

Dudley

 

[skogstokig]

yes, and more so in 10 ball for some reason. the trick is to first try and perfect your "flat" level break in terms of accuracy and speed, then start increasing the butt angle w/o removing focus on accuracy, ie dead on one ball hit, using a high closed bridge. adjust speed and butt angle so that cb don't fly off the table, this break works wonders, especially with magic rack.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Good conversation buddy!

Dudley

Agree with everything you say, particularly this last item!

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

My normal break switches between a few inches off the rail to a few from center. I try to get a solid hit and have experimented with draw, center, etc. Scratching has been a problem, even getting kicked in the side a bit. I gave the early suggestions a go the other night and jacked up a little to facilitate a pop. It could be the table for making balls on the break, but one of the biggest things I noticed was not as much kicking around of the CB.

Now, if you don't really need as much power to begin with, it could be beneficial to not have the CB kicked around and to clear up a lane for the balls. Does Dr Dave have video on this maybe? I'm using my phone and haven't checked back on all of the responses, just posting after checking out results from the other night.

Banks,

Work with it. I think you can always benefit from having another well honed trick in your bag. My experience is the same as yours. I almost never scratch using this technique.

KMRUNOUT

 

[dr_dave]

... Dr. Dave's videos that I've watched have shown , multiple times, that the cue will pop without raising the backend of the cue.

The "pop" (CB ball hop after hitting the rack) is mostly caused by the CB hitting the 1-ball while slightly airborne. For more info and demonstrations, see the CB hop and squat resource page.

You are correct that the back end of the cue does not need to be raised to make this occur. Because the cue needs to clear the rail, the cue is already elevated (non-level), so the CB is always driven down into the slate slightly, which causes it to jump slightly and hop on the way to the rack. Also, most people contact the CB a touch above center on the break shot (to help the rock squat), which drives the CB into the slate even more (due to downward "squirt"), which tends to make it jump and hop even more.

So with a firm break shot, the CB will always be hopping on the way to the rack, and if the CB hits the rack while airborne, it will "pop" (i.e., hop in the air after hitting the 1-ball). This is not something one should try to create (e.g., by elevating the cue even more than normal). However, with a well-struck break (i.e., a square hit with significant speed), it is difficult to avoid due to the reasons described above. The best scenario is if the CB lands exactly at the same time it hits the 1-ball. Then the most energy possible will be delivered to the rack, and the CB "pop" will be as small as possible. Although, even in this case, the CB will still "pop" slightly because the CB will still have a downward motion component when it lands at the 1-ball.

That slo-mo of SVB shows how level his cue is at impact.

Exactly! SVB hits the CB with the cue as level as possible to minimize how much the CB hops on the way to the rack, to deliver as much power as possible into the rack. If he elevated the cue more above level, the CB would jump and skip more on the way to the rack, possibly causing it to hit the 1-ball even more airborne, which would cause it to "pop" even higher. But this would not be good because less energy would be delivered to the rack (due to the losses during the initial and any subsequent hops).

BTW, SVB's break is good not because the CB "pops." It is good because he consistently hits the 1-ball very squarely with significant CB speed. When one does this, it is difficult to avoid the "pop." If people want to improve their break, IMO they should not be trying to force the CB to "pop" (e.g., by adding elevation to the cue). Instead, they should follow the technique advice on the break technique and equipment advice resource page. If one develops a good break, the CB will most likely "pop" (although, the "pop" is not really a good thing ... it is just the result of an accurate and powerful break).

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

... he is hitting above center, and thus the cueball is bouncing down table. I'm sure Dr. Dave has an explanation for the physics of this.... I said before I can jump over 4 pennies.... but looking at SVB looks like he can jump over a roll of quarters

For those interested, explanations and demonstrations of this effect can be found on the follow-shot ball-hop resource page.

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

the "pop" is not really a good thing ... it is just a unfortunate side-effect of an accurate and powerful break

Having written this, I still agree that the CB hop (AKA "pop") after a good break looks really cool ... especially when the rock squats perfectly in the center of the table.

Catch you later,
Dave