Does a specialized break cue really make a difference?

[HollyWood]

Gilbert makes all the balls

Just like shane and cory in a long race better breaker wins with players of equal runout ability. What the dog said is correct YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE BREAK BEFORE THE CUE. A STROKE IS ALL THAT IS REQUIRED, AND KNOWING WHAT TO DO WITH IT. most underrated part of your game . I practice break and run if you mis rerack somedays 200 breaks a day.Mark

 

[9ballprodigy]

A break cue will not make you break any better. This is all PURE HYPE generated by the billiard industry, and cuemakers. I love all the theories behind compression of the tip, and the cue weight. You are all starting to sound like Bob Meucci. Lighter isn't necessarily better. Neither is a harder tip.

An effective break pockets balls, and leaves the cueball in a specific spot to shoot from. There is no cue out there that promises to make 4 balls on the break. Notice no cuemaker makes any speed promises of their cues? You are hitting a round, hard ball with a wooden stick that compresses when you hit the ball. If the tip doesn't buckle (in the case of a phenolic tip), the shaft will. People think that by stiffening the shaft and putting a rock hard tip on a cue, that it adds speed. It does, but at the price of accuracy. If you hit the cueball 5% faster, but hit the head ball 10% less squarely, you are getting negative return with the higher speed. Same with a lighter cue. It's easier to swing a light cue faster, but you will hit the ball less accurately. How much accuracy are you willing to lose to gain a miniscule amount of speed? Look at the chart from Platinum Billiards when they speed tested the break cues. There is not a lot of variance between leather tipped cues and phenolics. If you watch break shots in slow motion, the cueball is bouncing on the way to the rack. The cue ball seems to bounce around less at slower speeds. The rack seems to spread better too.

It's like the guy that goes out and buys the latest driver because he wants to drive the ball 300 yards. If he can't hit the centre of the fairway with most of his drives, it was a bad investment. Same with a break cue. If you're destroying your tips on your playing cue, or breaking shafts due to your 30+ mph break shots, then go get a break cue. If you're an endorsed pro, carry one because it doesn't cost you anything. What I laugh about is there is a 2/3 rank on our team that carries a break cue with her. I don't. I pound the rack with my playing cue (20.75 oz). I've never had a tip problem (actually helps to break in the tip faster) or shaft problem, and I know EXACTLY how my playing cue hits because I use it for every shot.

My 2 cents.

ok ok... i gotta address a few things.

1. in terms of generating speed, a lighter cue IS easier than a heavy cue. physics will prove it.. i really can't see a way to argue out of this one.

2. of course no cue will "guarantee" you anything. every player breaks different.

3. "If the tip doesn't buckle (in the case of a phenolic tip), the shaft will."

ok... we're talking about inertia. the fact is, that the shaft will buckle just a bit due to the fact that the cue ball does have mass. but, i shudder to think that a shaft would somehow compensate entirely for a phenolic tip's hardness and lack of compression and negate all speed from increasing.

4. "It's easier to swing a light cue faster, but you will hit the ball less accurately."

how on earth will a lighter cue make you less accurate? if what you're saying is true, 20oz cue users by nature shoot more accurately than 18oz cue users. if you're talking, about getting USED to a 17oz break cue coming from a 20oz playing cue, that i can understand, but how on earth is it supposed to make you less accurate? even if you're talking about coping with the speed increases

5. "If you hit the cueball 5% faster, but hit the head ball 10% less squarely, you are getting negative return with the higher speed. Same with a lighter cue".

ok.. this is true. but then we're talking about form not the cue itself. if i break normally, can hit the 1 squarely, and i don't go all nuts and be bustamante, then it shouldn't matter. if you have such a big fear of not hitting the ball squarely, you should be practicing your form. break slower and gradually increase your speed as you feel comfortable. don't blame the cue!

6. If you watch break shots in slow motion, the cueball is bouncing on the way to the rack. The cue ball seems to bounce around less at slower speeds. The rack seems to spread better too.

ok... this is a well know fact in pool. on a break shot, the ball leaves the table for the first foot and beyond (depending how hard you hit it) in length when breaking. testament to this is how burn marks from break spot are prominent and then fade for about a foot after that before the ball touches the cloth again and hence a more prominent burn mark leading to the spot on the table. this occurs because when you shoot, their are rails on the table and you really can't get around that fact. you end up hitting in a slightly downward motion hence you are slightly "jumping" the ball. this happens on almost all shots. some people don't control their break and hit the 1-ball while the cue ball is in mid air. hence, less power goes INTO the rack as opposed to INTO the TABLE. this is also the reason why the cueball jumps off the table, because it's in midair when it hits the 1. the ideal break is to have the cue ball touch down right at the moment it hits the one. then it hits it flat in the face. but again, we're talking about form, not the cue. if you're so afraid of all the risks to shooting over 10 mph, i suggest you practice until you get comfortable and consistent. don't blame the cue.

7. "I pound the rack with my playing cue (20.75 oz). I've never had a tip problem (actually helps to break in the tip faster) or shaft problem, and I know EXACTLY how my playing cue hits because I use it for every shot"

you know, this is where i actually agree with you. i don't think that breaking with your playing cue, as long as you don't have some ridiculously soft tip, will damage or flatten the tip. one spends more time hitting the cue ball with english than breaking squarely, so the tip should round out over the course of play. i don't think it does much to the shaft either, but a believe that a lot of people just don't want to be so rough with their playing cue that might cost a couple grand. i think of it in terms of cars. i have a nice car that i baby, and i mean muther****** that i burn out in, redline in, drift... not that doing any of these things might hurt my nice car, but it relieves a lot of pressure when you know that the car you are testing the limits with isn't going to cost you a fortune to replace if something unexpected occurs.

sorry for the long post... just had to get this off my chest.

 

[seymore15074]

THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT SOME BREAK CUES CAN IMPROVE YOUR BREAK

Absolutely. You WILL notice a difference. I personally, no longer use one...my break is huge with my Josey s/p...it's been a while since I've used one, I almost fear what would happen if I broke that hard with a phenolic. Probably a miscue and someone being injured.

 

[alstl]

Just about the only part of my game that people have complimented me on is my break. I use a cheap J & J jump/break. The tip is deteriorating due to sometimes hitting with the edge of the tip instead the center.

 

[Klopek]

0000000000

 

[Cuebacca]

AH, I thought you were betting the other way round.

In that case, I'll send your Paypal refund ASAP.

Thanks, Klopek! Do we get i-Trader credits for this?

 

[predator]

Show me one professional player that uses the same technique for the break shot as their regular play. Soft break not included.

BVal

Most have different technique for the break, true. But, a wake up call first...most of us are NOT pro players nor do we have countless hours at our disposal just to practice the break shot. It takes time for that shot to settle in.

Most B+- class players or so called intermediates show up with their fancy phenolic tipped cues and whack the ball as hard as they can on the break. But they rarely park the cueball in the middle, almost never actually. And if by miracle the cueball stops in a desirable place, they runout less than 25% of open tables. C class players hardly ever runout, but they also whack the balls hard on the break. What's the whole point of even owning a break cue then?

 

[dave sutton]

i have had about every break cue under the sun.

i have en excellent break approaching 30 MPH

i have had some duds and i have has some beasts.

i think the cue makes a difference. for some more than others

but when you get a GREAT one its ...
ORGASMIC!

 

[9ballprodigy]

but when you get a GREAT one its ...
ORGASMIC!

ewww..... clean up on aisle 4! Dave broke again!!!

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

League play last night - played a guy that used a BK with one-piece phenolic end. Guy broke like King Kong. He scratched twice on the break, and made one ball on his break. Me, with my non-break designed Schon, made 3 9-balls, pocketed 3 balls twice, two balls 4 times, and only came up dry once. I'd shudder to think how I would have done with the BK.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

From Jack Koehler's "The Science of Pocket Billiards"

1. in terms of generating speed, a lighter cue IS easier than a heavy cue. physics will prove it.. i really can't see a way to argue out of this one.

4. "It's easier to swing a light cue faster, but you will hit the ball less accurately."

how on earth will a lighter cue make you less accurate? if what you're saying is true, 20oz cue users by nature shoot more accurately than 18oz cue users. if you're talking, about getting USED to a 17oz break cue coming from a 20oz playing cue, that i can understand, but how on earth is it supposed to make you less accurate? even if you're talking about coping with the speed increases

"In order to understand how stick weight affects aim and cue ball roll, it's necessary to understand something about kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is the energy contained in a moving object (cue stick). The amount of energy the moving stick has depends on the weight of the stick and its velocity. A light stick must have greater velocity in order to contain the same kinetic energy as a heavier stick. A freight train moving at 10mph has more kinetic energy than a car moving at 10mph. But, if the speed of the car is increased, at some point the kinetic energy would be equal to that of the train. The same principle applies to cue sticks. A light cue must be stroked faster than a heavy stick in order to propel the cue ball a given distance. The slower stroke of a heavy cue stick allows more accurate directional control. Therefore, the heavier the stick, the more accurate the aim. Since the heavier stick is stroked slower than the light stick, it's more speed sensitive (like putting downhill). A greater percentage of stick speed error is tolerable with a lighter stick (like putting uphill). Therefore, cue ball speed control is easier with a lighter stick."

On break cues:

"Many players believe that using a heavier stick will produce a more powerful break. This may be true for some players but others may break better with a lighter stick. The optimum stick weight depends on the individual's physical stature and reflexes. As stick weight is increased its speed is reduced, and at some point the reduction in speed will cause total stick energy to decline. Generally speaking, the maximum stick velocity generated by a small quick person will diminish rapidly with increased stick weight. The stick velocity of a large muscular person will diminish less rapidly and therefore cue stick weight can be increased considerably before resulting in diminishing returns."

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

No reason to use foul language
Shows alot about your character

I said to quit talking from your ass. I didn't call you an ass.

You have some good opinions. However, when you brought up the Mace, you weren't stating fact. I have spoken with Rick a few times. I USED TO OWN A MACE. They play great. They jump OK, but not as good as the dedicated jump cues available today. If you had a Mace with phenolic tip, it was either installed aftermarket, or Rick did it at special request. Rick bragged about the fact that the Mace was a good all around cue. A lot of bar box players loved them due to being able to break the cue down because of a post or close wall. These were Rick's words directly.

Call Rick. Ask him yourself. Jerry Franklin at Southwest used to hate hearing that people didn't break with his cues. He made them to play. Evan Clarke at Schon told me the same thing. I asked him why Schon didn't make a dedicated break cue. He said "break with your Schon. If you're not happy with it, give me a call". That's when I started breaking with my playing cue. As far as BVal's comment about my tip coming off, it's why I carry two shafts. Also, I really don't plaster the balls. Hit them around 60% of max, and get square contact on the head ball. If the tip comes off during my break, it would have come off on my next draw shot. I've learned a lot about the break as of late from watching Deuel, Schmidt and SVB. Neither of those guys are hitting the balls as hard as they can. But, they sure do hit them really solid.

If you took offense to my comment, I apologize. Insulting you wasn't my intent. You were calling me close-minded. I was showing you the data. I've been on the other side of the fence. All of the break cues I've owned haven't made a difference in how I can break. They may have added a MPH or two (although I doubt it), but I break just as well with a Schmelke sneaky, or a J&J J/B, or a Stinger, or a Sledgehammer, or a BK2, or my Schon. I just control the rock better with my playing cue. Now, I can pot a ball 70% of the time (average), and usually end up with a shot at the 1 in the corner. That's my objective. A Mace won't do that for me, unless I want to cough up $300 and work with the cue. My time is at a premium - career, family, etc.. If I know how my cue plays and breaks, that's one less thing I need to practice on a regular basis.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

1. in terms of generating speed, a lighter cue IS easier than a heavy cue. physics will prove it.. i really can't see a way to argue out of this one.

The energy of your stick hitting the cue ball increases linearly as your stick's weight increases but exponentially as its speed increases. In other words, if the weight increases 10%, the energy increases 10% - but if the speed increases 10%, the energy increases 100%. So more speed is much more effective than more weight (all else, such accuracy, being equal).

A lighter cue can be moved faster by most players, but as Jack Koehler says (quoted in another post), that may depend on the person's physiology. A stronger person can move a heavy stick faster than a weaker person, but may not be able to move a lighter stick faster because his arm just won't move that fast.

2. of course no cue will "guarantee" you anything. every player breaks different.

A break cue with a stiff shaft and phenolic tip can guarantee that you'll put more energy into the cue ball. Whether it's enough to make any difference in the success of your breaks, or whether you lose something else (like accuracy) are different questions to which there's no single answer.

3. "If the tip doesn't buckle (in the case of a phenolic tip), the shaft will."

ok... we're talking about inertia. the fact is, that the shaft will buckle just a bit due to the fact that the cue ball does have mass. but, i shudder to think that a shaft would somehow compensate entirely for a phenolic tip's hardness and lack of compression and negate all speed from increasing.

Break cues are generally made with thicker, stiffer shafts anyway, so this is probably moot.

4. "It's easier to swing a light cue faster, but you will hit the ball less accurately."

how on earth will a lighter cue make you less accurate? if what you're saying is true, 20oz cue users by nature shoot more accurately than 18oz cue users. if you're talking, about getting USED to a 17oz break cue coming from a 20oz playing cue, that i can understand, but how on earth is it supposed to make you less accurate? even if you're talking about coping with the speed increases

There could be something to the idea that a light cue will be swung less accurately by some players, maybe because it gives less feedback when moved offline. But it surely doesn't apply to all players.

5. "If you hit the cueball 5% faster, but hit the head ball 10% less squarely, you are getting negative return with the higher speed. Same with a lighter cue".

ok.. this is true.

These percentages are meaningless. You can't mathematically compare the percentage of speed increase with the percentage of accuracy decrease - it's apples and oranges. How do you even measure the "percentage" of accuracy decrease?

6. If you watch break shots in slow motion, the cueball is bouncing on the way to the rack. The cue ball seems to bounce around less at slower speeds. The rack seems to spread better too.

The cue ball doesn't "bounce around" - it bounces significantly once or twice on the way to the rack. If it hits the rack while significantly in the air you lose breaking power, but this might be changed for better or worse by increasing CB speed.

7. "I pound the rack with my playing cue (20.75 oz). I've never had a tip problem (actually helps to break in the tip faster) or shaft problem, and I know EXACTLY how my playing cue hits because I use it for every shot"

you know, this is where i actually agree with you.

Me too. Being comfortable and accurate with every stick you use is the most important factor, even though technology can and does increase CB speed.

pj
chgo