Does anyone here have any experience, or opinions about Early Adam Custom Shop Musashi cues?

Benelli said:
Would a fairer comparison be with other mass-produced cues of the time?

I consider Japan era Adam's on par with Green Mali's but under window Vikings and B series McDermott's.

Accurate?
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I would personally put them on Par with a D Series Mcdermott. The ones like the VIP Helmstetter, and the 86, and 87 Series Helmstetter, to name some examples. Helmstetter made really great cues back in the 80's, and early to mid 90's, before Adam moved most of its production to China, sometime in the later half of the 90's, I believe.

Adam still made some really great production cues over the last 30 years though, right there in Japan.
 
billiards_watch said:
They are not better than those names you listed. I said they were superior than their counterparts during that period. It could be a myriad of cues from the production level. I mean we are comparing apples to apples here.
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Then which counterparts do you want to compare against since you’re backpedaling? Joss? McDermott? No way were they superior to these two at any time. What’s the next clarification you need to make?
 
The
vintagecollectibles831 said:
They were just as good as most US Production cues though, with the exception of Schon. They were just as good as a Joss for example. I am talking about the Helmstetter cues from the 80's and early 90's. Like the VIP line, and the 86, and 87 Series, for example. They were very high quality. The Balabushka line too, from the 80's and 90's.
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The guy said, “superior.” Start with that.
 
vintagecollectibles831 said:
You are speaking about some of the best cue makers who ever lived. Can't compare a Production cue to any of those Legends, but the 80's and 90's era Helmstetter was every bit as high quality as a Joss, for example, in my opinion. Edit: I would actually say better than the average run of the mill Joss. Helmstetter cues were super nice. The ones made back in the 80's, and early 90's And, they play really great.
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I know you won’t get that this reasoning makes no sense. If he is saying that Adam was “superior” to their “American Counterparts,” then by your reasoning, he must be talkng about someone that is not on the same level (superior/inferior). Else, your reasoning is trying to find an equivalent, but then you have to reconcile the word “superior.”

Believe me, it doesn’t make sense. He only needs to say that he meant something else. Backing his play won’t get you anywhere.
 
Cornerman said:
I know you won’t get that this reasoning makes no sense. If he is saying that Adam was “superior” to their “American Counterparts,” then by your reasoning, he must be talkng about someone that is not on the same level (superior/inferior). Else, your reasoning is trying to find an equivalent, but then you have to reconcile the word “superior.”

Believe me, it doesn’t make sense. He only needs to say that he meant something else. Backing his play won’t get you anywhere.
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Fred,
Maybe he is correct. Maybe the "American Counterparts" he speaks of is Katie Kue, or American Sportsman Aluminum Cues. Because he is certainly not talking about Schon, Pechauer or to a lesser extent Meucci and McDermott.

Cues and pool players are a funny bunch. People make outlandish claims then when you ask for examples or reasons they start sounding like Kamala Harris talking about the economy.

It always sounds like someone took 30 barnyard see and say's and pulled the strings at the same time. :ROFLMAO:

JV
 
Some of the old Adams cue were fully spliced. I don't recall any McDermott fully spliced. This type of construction alone makes it superior. We're not talking about sneakies either.

I will let people on a little secret....vintage Adams have been making a comeback due to the full spliced construction. Their cues can be had for hundreds of dollars. You want this type of construction you would have to spend thousands from a cue maker. There are people that don't know what a full splice is or care and you have to specifically request it when you get a cue build.

So based on my experience shooting these old cues and how they are constructed is how I come to the conclusion they are better than any of their competitors at the time. That's if you guys care how it was constructed.

There are old threads talking about this on this site.
 
billiards_watch said:
Some of the old Adams cue were fully spliced. I don't recall any McDermott fully spliced. This type of construction alone makes it superior. We're not talking about sneakies either.

I will let people on a little secret....vintage Adams have been making a comeback due to the full spliced construction. Their cues can be had for hundreds of dollars. You want this type of construction you would have to spend thousands from a cue maker. There are people that don't know what a full splice is or care and you have to specifically request it when you get a cue build.

So based on my experience shooting these old cues and how they are constructed is how I come to the conclusion they are better than any of their competitors at the time. That's if you guys care how it was constructed.

There are old threads talking about this on this site.
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I think everyone with any kind of knowledge knows that full spice vs half splice isn’t an automatic anything. Or else you’d be saying that an Abe Rich using an import full-splice blank would be superior to any number of his contemporaries that were doing half-splice forarms.

And before anyone changes their argument, the post that I originally responded to said that Adam was “superior” to their “American Counterpart.” That would mean in the 70’s they’d have to be superior to Joss. In the 80’s, they’d have to be superior to Schon, Schuler, Pechauer. That wouldn’t have been reality. Or else he’d get to pick who he’s comparing against, which he should have done at the beginning versus the blanket incorrect statement. Heck, McDermoot was one of the first if not the first companies that used CNC on all the internal parts. Their engineering fit was as good as anyone in the industry. Schuler also understood CnC repeatability and fit for their internal design.

Adam was built in two factories at a minimum when Helmstetter went to Japan: Saitama (the OEM factory) and at Miki (the contract manufacturer company). Two vastly different quality of cues.
 
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The old full splice vs. short splice A joint debate... hmmmmmm... been there done that.
First bought up on the internet in 1995 RSB.... 30 years later...
30 year old argument and I bet that's older than the new people wanting to make the same argument.

Psst... Champion tips are better than any tip out there today.... you heard it here first. lol

JV
 
billiards_watch said:
Some of the old Adams cue were fully spliced. I don't recall any McDermott fully spliced. This type of construction alone makes it superior. We're not talking about sneakies either.

I will let people on a little secret....vintage Adams have been making a comeback due to the full spliced construction. Their cues can be had for hundreds of dollars. You want this type of construction you would have to spend thousands from a cue maker. There are people that don't know what a full splice is or care and you have to specifically request it when you get a cue build.

So based on my experience shooting these old cues and how they are constructed is how I come to the conclusion they are better than any of their competitors at the time. That's if you guys care how it was constructed.

There are old threads talking about this on this site.
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I was thinking the same thing. From a YouTube video that I watched, on the construction of Adam cues, they / the Japanese craftsman built full splice cues, with Veneers, and did all of that by hand. It looked really cool.

And, just speaking about playability, feel, and hit, the 87 Series Helmstetter is one of the best playing cues I have ever played with.

The 86, and 87 Series Helmstetter cues were very expensive too. The top of the line 86-15 was an $800 cue, and that was $800 back in the 80"s. For very good reason too, because it was a really great cue.
 
garczar said:
WTF??? You really have no clue. Newer cues DO NOT put more spin on a ball. A bad cue is a bad cue regardless of when it was made. For the last time: there has never been a time when Japanese cues were/are better than top US custom cues. Musashi's and Exceed's would be the only Japanese cues to come close to what top US makers produce.
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Musashi did make a very good Carom cue, maybe still do.
 
Cornerman said:
I think everyone with any kind of knowledge knows that full spice vs half splice isn’t an automatic anything. Or else you’d be saying that an Abe Rich using an import full-splice blank would be superior to any number of his contemporaries that were doing half-splice forarms.

And before anyone changes their argument, the post that I originally responded to said that Adam was “superior” to their “American Counterpart.” That would mean in the 70’s they’d have to be superior to Joss. In the 80’s, they’d have to be superior to Schon, Schuler, Pechauer. That wouldn’t have been reality. Or else he’d get to pick who he’s comparing against, which he should have done at the beginning versus the blanket incorrect statement. Heck, McDermoot was one of the first if not the first companies that used CNC on all the internal parts. Their engineering fit was as good as anyone in the industry. Schuler also understood CnC repeatability and fit for their internal design.

Adam was built in two factories at a minimum when Helmstetter went to Japan: Saitama (the OEM factory) and at Miki (the contract manufacturer company). Two vastly different quality of cues.
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I see Adam as just a Brand Name, not a cue maker. Who had at least several different factories (like you said) building cues for them.

I do not know who built the VIP, 86, and 87 series, to name some examples, but those were really great cues, I believe.

Adam also did a line called Super Pro, and those looked very nice to me too. I read that they were very expensive too.

Anyways, I would never compare them to a Schon for example, but as players, I would say that they hit superior to most of those other US made production cues, of the same era. That is just an opinion though. It should be okay to have opinions.

Going way off topic, but you mentioned Pechauer. I know they are great quality cues, but did you know that he does not even use real Ebony in anything under $1k, in his line of cues. He calls it Ebonized Maple, lol. I think if that as Black Spray paint, over Maple, which is what it probably is. So, whenever I think of Pechauer, I just think "Cheapskate", because he says that Ebony is just too expensive to use on anything that is under $1k. I even found some of his cues that were over $1k that used that term Ebonized Maple in it, lol. No $1k cue should have any sort of spray paint on it, lol.
 
vintagecollectibles831 said:
This is a Musashi. A custom shop cue. Not the average run of the mill Adam. The Mugen line are very high quality too though, I believe.
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How do you know that? Musashi's all say 'Musashi' on them. Does this one? It may have been made in the Saitama Japan shop but that doesn't make it a Musashi. Look at the Kenbu line here: https://adam-ny.com/product-category/cue/ Made at the same shop but not a Musashi. BTW, anyone wanting ADAM-Japan stuff in the US these are the folks to contact.
 
I have a few old Adam cues, 70's and 80's, including Helmstetter cues and others. The Helmstetter cues were exactly the same construction and quality of their other better lines of cues, so anybody singling them out is, well, I don't know. In fact, you could get some of the same cues without the Helmstetter name on the. Some of them trickle into the US from Asia. There was the US market, Europe, Asia, then everywhere else, with different cues sold in different markets, and they made a lot of cues. Some of the same cues were sold with different names on them in different markets. Then there were those that were made for brands under contract that didn't even have any Adam identification.

I have seen Joss used as an example in the 80's and 90's. Joss was consistently ahead in engineering cues throughout that time compared to Adam. Adam essentially rode on the coattails of such makers. Joss was re-engineering cue construction from the inside out while Adam was using 40+ year old construction techniques. No shame in that, it is simply how it was, and they were indeed good at it. They has a lot of success putting name decals on cues. Those cues were certainly nice and of "good construction".

To me, Musashi isn't old. I have no idea about these cues but am curious.
 
All I want to know is the Musashi cues named after the warrior that wrote the Book of 5 Rings, or the ancient province where Tokyo is located.

I would think the fighter, but who knows.

JV
 
According ADAM-Japan the 'Musashi' line didn't debut til 2000. That comes directly from their website. The op's cue could have come from the Saitama shop but its no Musashi.
 
garczar said:
How do you know that? Musashi's all say 'Musashi' on them. Does this one? It may have been made in the Saitama Japan shop but that doesn't make it a Musashi. Look at the Kenbu line here: https://adam-ny.com/product-category/cue/ Made at the same shop but not a Musashi. BTW, anyone wanting ADAM-Japan stuff in the US these are the folks to contact.
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Did you not view the link to the cue I posted a link to? It is almost identical in design, other then the ringwork. Just look at the design.

アダム　ムサシ／ADAM MUSASHI　＃119 - ノダブロ｜ビリヤード 通販 キューショップジャパン

www.csjblog.com www.csjblog.com

Do you not see the exact similarities? Did you even read my post? The two cues are identical in design, other than some of the materials, and the ringwork. That is a Musashi in that link, and I would bet anything that the cue in my pictures is also a Musashi.

Why would Adam build a cue with the exact same design of a Musashi that they made, and also limit that cue to only 5 made, and also put "Nagaya Special" in the forearm, just like they did the Musashi, if the cue were not a Musashi?
 
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classiccues said:
All I want to know is the Musashi cues named after the warrior that wrote the Book of 5 Rings, or the ancient province where Tokyo is located.

I would think the fighter, but who knows.

JV
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I would bet named after the ancient province, if that is true. Only because there was another line of Adam cues called Ada-Chi, originally, and Adachi is a Provence of Tokyo.
 
I got bored and contacted NewArt. They contacted ADAM-Japan and they said there is only one 'NagayaSpecial' If its marked '1/5' its a copy. Also said its not a Musashi cue. As posted earlier that line did not come out til 2000. The original was made at the ADAM-Japan shop. They had no info on cues marked '1/5'. I emailed Li at ADAM-Japan as well and haven't heard back.
 
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