Hi,
Been confused about this topic for a long time now and just wanted some clearing out. Thanx for all the help.
Been confused about this topic for a long time now and just wanted some clearing out. Thanx for all the help.
Does shaft stiffness/whippiness dramatically affects deflection?
- Thread starter pinoyincalgary
- Start date
drivermaker
Banned
pinoyincalgary said:
The only thing that matters is, which one do you pocket more balls with and which one has more impact on the outcome of the money. Deflection can pretty much be a non-issue with either of them if you learn certain things, such as back-hand english like all of the pro's from the past through the present. You might hear a pro occasionally say the reason he lost was because he couldn't get used to the speed of the cloth or the lights were too bright and hot, or something else. Have you ever heard a pro in the history of the sport say, "I lost today because I just couldn't get my deflection under control and it kept messing with my accuracy"? For them, whippy or stiff, it's a non-issue. Fuhgitaboutit!!
drivermaker said:
Drivermaker,
Hi. I did not say that deflection is a bad thing. I am just curious if the characteristics of the shaft have a dramatic relationship to deflection?
PinoyinCalgary.....still looking for a cue that makes him pocket more balls
i have heard so many different sides to the story, i wonder sometimes how all these tests can be run to come up with all these different results.
for the longest time i was told, that billiard cues(very stiff) deflect less than whippier pro tapers. yet meucci has always said otherwise. and remember too,that the billiard cues have a soft ferrule.
then predator comes with a cue that has "zero" deflection. they make a cue that has a soft front on the shaft.
common sense and tests seem to say that a stiff shaft drives through the cb and so the cb will angle off. the predator shaft has a soft core in the first few inches of their shaft, so the shaft gives when contact is made with the cb. this displacement is what allows for a straighter cb because the shaft is not really driving through the cb. i think this is the gist of the argument.
a friend of mine who plays nothing but 3 cushion says,"of course, there is deflection with a stiff billiard cue. however it is CONSISTENT, no matter where you hit the cb." i am going to guess,and say that a pro taper shaft bends differently depending on how you hit the cb, whereas the billiard taper is so stiff that it is not SO affected as the whippier shafts.....my opinion
for the longest time i was told, that billiard cues(very stiff) deflect less than whippier pro tapers. yet meucci has always said otherwise. and remember too,that the billiard cues have a soft ferrule.
then predator comes with a cue that has "zero" deflection. they make a cue that has a soft front on the shaft.
common sense and tests seem to say that a stiff shaft drives through the cb and so the cb will angle off. the predator shaft has a soft core in the first few inches of their shaft, so the shaft gives when contact is made with the cb. this displacement is what allows for a straighter cb because the shaft is not really driving through the cb. i think this is the gist of the argument.
a friend of mine who plays nothing but 3 cushion says,"of course, there is deflection with a stiff billiard cue. however it is CONSISTENT, no matter where you hit the cb." i am going to guess,and say that a pro taper shaft bends differently depending on how you hit the cb, whereas the billiard taper is so stiff that it is not SO affected as the whippier shafts.....my opinion
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drivermaker
Banned
pinoyincalgary said:
I don't think the characteristics of the shaft have a major role in the deflection issue. There's an argument going on right now between the two science masterminds and they're on opposite ends of the spectrum in different areas. The jury is still out after all these years. I think the stiffness/flexibility issue has more to do with personal preference in feel/hit and what you THINK you're able to do better or easier with one over the other such as applying more juice to the CB or accuracy, but not due to deflection affecting it.
bruin70 said:
Hmmmm, whom to believe? People who hit big heavy balls around and know what they are doing, or a guy trying to sell many low quality cues?
IME, the stiffer shafts deflect less. I have everything from regular shafts to billiard shafts. Hitting balls with my own hands with my own cues tells me the answer.
Deflection isn't the only relevant characteristic. I am playing w/ something a little softer and livelier right now. Not a noodle though and not a high deflection thing. Playing billiards requires something a little different. But you won't catch me playing w/ a Meucci. For real fun, go play billiards on bad cloth and dead rails with a Meucci. I did it once. LOL.
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This is how I see the facts -
Cue (projectile) - tapered shaft
Speed (motion) - endless variables
Cue-ball (sphere) - hard surface
cue + speed + cue-ball/contact = Deflection (physics)
When the projectile is put in motion and contact is made with the sphere, there will be a reaction. The variables are either a mild affect (slow rolling the sphere) or a dramatic affect (power-hitting the sphere).
Therefore, players need to understand the different characteristics of a cue and how it relates to their personal style. Changes in the dynamics of a cue will most likely require adjustments in aim and feel. The exception may be a player that stringently maintains playing with finesse (only). In this case there will be little delflection regardless of stiffness.
On the other hand...
Banker Burt
PS. IMO, the real difference in a cue is found in the tip... meaning a clear understanding that this is the part which actually makes the contact.
Cue (projectile) - tapered shaft
Speed (motion) - endless variables
Cue-ball (sphere) - hard surface
cue + speed + cue-ball/contact = Deflection (physics)
When the projectile is put in motion and contact is made with the sphere, there will be a reaction. The variables are either a mild affect (slow rolling the sphere) or a dramatic affect (power-hitting the sphere).
Therefore, players need to understand the different characteristics of a cue and how it relates to their personal style. Changes in the dynamics of a cue will most likely require adjustments in aim and feel. The exception may be a player that stringently maintains playing with finesse (only). In this case there will be little delflection regardless of stiffness.
On the other hand...
Banker Burt
PS. IMO, the real difference in a cue is found in the tip... meaning a clear understanding that this is the part which actually makes the contact.
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Deflection? we dont need no stinkin deflection...... well actually ask the good players and yeah we do need deflection. stiff whippy who cares ...In my opinion the differnce is only apparent at a lower skill level, a good player shoota a few shots witha cue and can adjust for the deflection where as a bad player doesnt seem to have that flexibility in there stroke
This was Ron Shepard's opinion in his paper on Squirt (Cue Ball Defelction) http://www.sfbilliards.com/Shepard_squirt.pdf
I assume this is still the opinion of the San Francisco Billiard Academy guys. Perhaps Bob Jewett explain in more detail here:
"Does shaft flexibility affect squirt? No, not directly. Shaft flexibility may affect the
endmass and thereby affect squirt indirectly, but this is probably a relatively
minor effect."
According to Predator Cues: http://www.predatorcues.com/english/advantage.htm
"Predator shafts are engineered to allow the cue ball to push the shaft aside instead of the shaft pushing the cue ball off line."
According to Meucci: http://www.meuccicues.com/deflection.htm
"If you are looking for minimum cue ball deflection, you will need a cue with a soft/flexible ferrule which will absorb shock and allow the tip to wipe across the ball. The cue should also have a flexible shaft and a plastic joint."
All of these sources are of the opinion that a flexible shaft can reduce deflection. There reasons differ and some parts of what they are saying are in disagreement.
In my own experience I prefer a relatively stiff shaft, but I like a softer ferrule. I played a lot of English 8-ball where we use a 1 7/8th inch cue ball. Such a small cue ball deflects considerably more than US Pool balls.
Trying to hit power shots with a whippy shaft with one of those balls is deadly!
According to my own theory, which I have described in some detail on another thread here, there are 3 likely mechanisms going on.
1. Whippy shafts effectively reduce end mass to some degree.
2. Force applied along the line of the cue, on a shot with side is reduced with a whippy cue. Through this mechanism, stiffer shafts decrease deflection. (I tend to think, that in power shots, point 2 becomes more important than point 1 and so stiffer shafts may be advantageous for power shots with side.)
3. Whippy shafts may reduce the time of tip/ball contact and decrease the amount of locking of chalk grains into the surfaces for better grip and transmission of force along the line of the cue.
My preference at this stage, would be for a cue that is stiff, insofar as it resists sideways bending, but to allow compression along the line of the cue, perhaps via a softer ferrule or softer joint material.
People may ask: "Why not a soft tip?" Becuase a soft tip will tend to compress to the side as well as along the line of the cue. It will then elastically return this sideway deflective force to the cue ball.
That said, I think there is a lot of testing still to be done with different types of materials that compress to different degrees along different lines. I think this will lead to better locking at the tip/ball interface, and this will be key to reducing deflection and allowing players greater ease it hitting far off centre, and producing large amounts of spin, without miscue.
I assume this is still the opinion of the San Francisco Billiard Academy guys. Perhaps Bob Jewett explain in more detail here:
"Does shaft flexibility affect squirt? No, not directly. Shaft flexibility may affect the
endmass and thereby affect squirt indirectly, but this is probably a relatively
minor effect."
According to Predator Cues: http://www.predatorcues.com/english/advantage.htm
"Predator shafts are engineered to allow the cue ball to push the shaft aside instead of the shaft pushing the cue ball off line."
According to Meucci: http://www.meuccicues.com/deflection.htm
"If you are looking for minimum cue ball deflection, you will need a cue with a soft/flexible ferrule which will absorb shock and allow the tip to wipe across the ball. The cue should also have a flexible shaft and a plastic joint."
All of these sources are of the opinion that a flexible shaft can reduce deflection. There reasons differ and some parts of what they are saying are in disagreement.
In my own experience I prefer a relatively stiff shaft, but I like a softer ferrule. I played a lot of English 8-ball where we use a 1 7/8th inch cue ball. Such a small cue ball deflects considerably more than US Pool balls.
Trying to hit power shots with a whippy shaft with one of those balls is deadly!
According to my own theory, which I have described in some detail on another thread here, there are 3 likely mechanisms going on.
1. Whippy shafts effectively reduce end mass to some degree.
2. Force applied along the line of the cue, on a shot with side is reduced with a whippy cue. Through this mechanism, stiffer shafts decrease deflection. (I tend to think, that in power shots, point 2 becomes more important than point 1 and so stiffer shafts may be advantageous for power shots with side.)
3. Whippy shafts may reduce the time of tip/ball contact and decrease the amount of locking of chalk grains into the surfaces for better grip and transmission of force along the line of the cue.
My preference at this stage, would be for a cue that is stiff, insofar as it resists sideways bending, but to allow compression along the line of the cue, perhaps via a softer ferrule or softer joint material.
People may ask: "Why not a soft tip?" Becuase a soft tip will tend to compress to the side as well as along the line of the cue. It will then elastically return this sideway deflective force to the cue ball.
That said, I think there is a lot of testing still to be done with different types of materials that compress to different degrees along different lines. I think this will lead to better locking at the tip/ball interface, and this will be key to reducing deflection and allowing players greater ease it hitting far off centre, and producing large amounts of spin, without miscue.
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Thanx for all the reply. Please keep them coming. I am getting lots of good info from all of you guys. Thanx again.
A direct link between the mass in the end of the stick and the amount of squirt (there are lots of reasons not to call it deflection) that a shaft produces has been shown by several people. It's easy to do yourself with lead tape or wire on the ferrule.pinoyincalgary said:
Lots of "stiff" shafts including carom shafts, get that way by using a conical taper which reduces the weight up front. There are whippy shafts that squirt a lot, and there are other whippy shafts that have low squirt. You can't tell unless you shoot with one. Theory says that a more whippy shaft -- which means more flexible in the first few inches in this case -- will tend to have less squirt, but it seems that other factors, such as the ferrule, have a larger effect.
shafts
Hey guys, none of you folks posting here appears to of never built cues. In building cues, [this cuemaker], I do my best to build cues and shafts that will deliver the ball best in my opinion. You all talk about deflection with shafts, there shapes and so on. All of these things add up, and do have an effect on the end results, with player doing the tersting by playing or labs test..
Take into consideration the size of the shafts, the entire lenght, and size at the ferrule, and joint, along with the shape , the size and weight of shafts and butts, all contribute to defflection to some degree.
You can take one shaft and run your test, then put it on another butt, and the test results will differ....
I have said before and will say now, reports are just that, REPORTS. You can take 1 to 100 labs tec's and using the same cue, you will have conflicting reports, over and again. We all read things differantly....
The best test is for the owner/player of a cue, make your nessesary adjustment with his or her cue while playing. Just play and make your nessesary adjustments.
Like someone posted way back, tests are not the answer. Test will not help you play better, or worse.
Dial out the test report when you play.
Or, maybe you should stop play,take out your test results, read up to see what you need to do with the next shot.
blud
Hey guys, none of you folks posting here appears to of never built cues. In building cues, [this cuemaker], I do my best to build cues and shafts that will deliver the ball best in my opinion. You all talk about deflection with shafts, there shapes and so on. All of these things add up, and do have an effect on the end results, with player doing the tersting by playing or labs test..
Take into consideration the size of the shafts, the entire lenght, and size at the ferrule, and joint, along with the shape , the size and weight of shafts and butts, all contribute to defflection to some degree.
You can take one shaft and run your test, then put it on another butt, and the test results will differ....
I have said before and will say now, reports are just that, REPORTS. You can take 1 to 100 labs tec's and using the same cue, you will have conflicting reports, over and again. We all read things differantly....
The best test is for the owner/player of a cue, make your nessesary adjustment with his or her cue while playing. Just play and make your nessesary adjustments.
Like someone posted way back, tests are not the answer. Test will not help you play better, or worse.
Dial out the test report when you play.
Or, maybe you should stop play,take out your test results, read up to see what you need to do with the next shot.
blud
blud said:
blud,,,i've always felt that deflection is an over-hyped characteristic. and one only has to go as far as watching the pros play with different cues, then switching to other cues, and playing just dandy. the simple matter is,,,,,you adjust very quickly.
drivermaker
Banned
blud said:
Oh-oh...now look at what you went and said. That opens up a whole new can of worms because both of them said that they see the butt as having NO FACTOR in deflection. What you're in essence saying is the same thing as Meucci, that a butt CAN play a role in the entire scheme of things. The wrath of the science GODS is about to come down upon you.
V
((VH))
Guest
IMO deflection will always be present. What has been done is to lessen the effect of CB deflection. Now if anyone claims their shaft has zero deflection, then either they're lying or they don't know what they're talkin about.
Just to quote Grady on that
Just to quote Grady on that
truths
Hi driver, how you doin?
Yes, it's true. The butt has a lot to do with how the cue "plays", and deflection is part of it. If these so called "experts" who talk there talk, were cuemakers [ or a good one at that], they too would agree, that butts and many other things have a factor in defliction....
[ kinda like saying an engine in a car has nothing to do with it's proformance]. DUH!DUH!
The shape of the butt, it's size, it's weight,the type of wood, how dence it is, how long was it dried in a kiln, how long it was soaked in a stablizer, or if it wasn't soaked at all, what kind of wrap is used, regular leather, or stacked leather, snake or pig skin, linen, rubber bumper, the way it's fastened to the butt plate, and the list could go on and on.
If they really think that butts and there construction has nothing to do with deflection, there really is a cheese moon.[ and the cow did jump over the moon]..........
BYW, that might be the only thing that Meucci ever said, that one could listen too and believe.
The science gods, should lay down there slide rules and play more.
I do not know of a single qualified "top cuemaker" who will pay any attention to reports about defliection. For that matter, I do not know one single pro who does not adjust to his or her cues defliection. Not one. They read the cues proformance, and like I said, adjust.........
Never will be the perfect cue. NEVER.........
My customers tell me what I need to hear........and I adjust........Danny DiLiberto, Grady Mathews, Buddy Hall, Wade Crane, and so on....
Besides, who really care about reports any ways. Won't help any of us make more balls, easier.
I have no education, just field experance, and damn proud of what I have accomplished with it, and without a sheep skin on the wall. Proud of my cues, machinery, as well as my life..........All accomplished without any Lab "TEST".
Life is the only real true test. Go for it.
blud
drivermaker said:
Hi driver, how you doin?
Yes, it's true. The butt has a lot to do with how the cue "plays", and deflection is part of it. If these so called "experts" who talk there talk, were cuemakers [ or a good one at that], they too would agree, that butts and many other things have a factor in defliction....
[ kinda like saying an engine in a car has nothing to do with it's proformance]. DUH!DUH!
The shape of the butt, it's size, it's weight,the type of wood, how dence it is, how long was it dried in a kiln, how long it was soaked in a stablizer, or if it wasn't soaked at all, what kind of wrap is used, regular leather, or stacked leather, snake or pig skin, linen, rubber bumper, the way it's fastened to the butt plate, and the list could go on and on.
If they really think that butts and there construction has nothing to do with deflection, there really is a cheese moon.[ and the cow did jump over the moon]..........
BYW, that might be the only thing that Meucci ever said, that one could listen too and believe.
The science gods, should lay down there slide rules and play more.
I do not know of a single qualified "top cuemaker" who will pay any attention to reports about defliection. For that matter, I do not know one single pro who does not adjust to his or her cues defliection. Not one. They read the cues proformance, and like I said, adjust.........
Never will be the perfect cue. NEVER.........
My customers tell me what I need to hear........and I adjust........Danny DiLiberto, Grady Mathews, Buddy Hall, Wade Crane, and so on....
Besides, who really care about reports any ways. Won't help any of us make more balls, easier.
I have no education, just field experance, and damn proud of what I have accomplished with it, and without a sheep skin on the wall. Proud of my cues, machinery, as well as my life..........All accomplished without any Lab "TEST".
Life is the only real true test. Go for it.
blud
drivermaker
Banned
blud said:
Blud...I think that we definitely have a meeting of the minds. I wouldn't go so far to say that we're blood brothers or joined at the hip as of yet, but I feel like you've hit the nail on the head. A cue is a sum total of all of it's parts, and even if something doesn't have a direct effect on a performance factor, it influences OTHER areas that do somewhere down the line, and that's just the way it is. It's like that old song...the hip bone's connected to the thigh bone...the thigh bone's connected to the knee bone...the knee bone's....... ALL of it contributes to the outcome and they ain't gettin' it!
blud said:
Hey Blud,
Actually, what I have been saying about deflection does leave the door open for explaining some effects from the butt end of the cue. This would be in terms of how forces are distributed along the cue. Dense and dried woods could make a difference. I don't think the differences are great, but are worth investigating.
In fact, when you make a cue and test it, and make changes and re-test, you are using the scientific method. You are observing and threorizing and then re-testing.
But there are efficient and inefficient ways to go about this. We need to isolate the variables to we can test them. eg: If I test two butts by hand, I have the variables of my own cueing errors and variables such as grip tightness etc. Perhaps guessing by eye what I actually happened.
We do need an analytical approach to this science of cue design. Every product in this world needs a Research and Development department.
You can argue that your scientific method is better than mine, but if you argue that science has little to do with this, you should be mining for cheese on the moon
drivermaker
Banned
Colin Colenso said:
Colin backpedals and does a superb imitation of Michael Jackson doing the moonwalk with his statement above. What you actually said earlier was this:
"I'd like to know exactly what Bob Meucci does have to say about the how the butt effects deflection. I'd like to hear from anyone on this actually.
In fact, what advantages can a good butt have over a cheap butt at all"?
Now, you can interpret the meaning of a statement any way that you want, just like Bill Clinton did when he challenged with..."That depends on what your definition of "IS" is". We can argue semantics all day long and get no where, but it sure seems to me in your original statement that you place NO...ZERO...ZILCH...NADA credence in the fact that a butt has any effect on deflection whatsoever.
Bob Jewett said:
Your reply brings up a bit of confusion I've always had about the weight up front issue. Is the consideration absolute weight up front or weight up front relative to the total weight of the shaft/cue?