Does "spinning the ball in" increase your shooting margin of error?

[Travis Bickle]

I don't think it's a couple of guys. I think the vast majority of male pros hit game-ball cuts (particularly with the ball near the spot) with a touch of outside, around center ball.

Another trend I'd argue for is using a little outside to cinch back-cuts. I recall seeing both Archer and Deuel do that in a Mosconi Cup match (I believe that's where I saw it). Didn't seem to be necessary for position ... in both cases they were fairly close to the object ball, maybe 3 inches, on half-table or longer shots. I've also found myself to be more consistent on such shots since I've taken up that practice.

 

[enzo]

I don't think that's clear in either case. It looks to me like Efren chose not to spin the CB either time. But I wouldn't say that means it's a bad idea - I don't think what one pro does on two shots is much evidence of anything.



Even if it's true that some pros tend to do this (I agree with that, even if Efren didn't do it in these videos), why does that make it a good idea? Other pros don't do it. Doesn't that make it a bad idea? These "appeals to authority" are meaningless.

pj
chgo

anybody can say whatever they want, but i've seen almost every pro use outside english when "cinching" 9balls, and definitely in cases where they are not using to try and avoid a scratch. it obviously helps in some way.

maybe people should backtrack, assuming there is some flawed logic, and try to think of reasons why outside would help. i can think of a few, but i've selfishly decided to keep them to myself. haha, sorry, i crack myself up sometimes.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think the vast majority of male pros hit game-ball cuts (particularly with the ball near the spot) with a touch of outside, around center ball.

i've seen almost every pro use outside english when "cinching" 9balls

You guys crack me up. What are the vast majority of pros (or almost every one, if you prefer) thinking when they do this? Don't tell me you don't know that.

pj
chgo

 

[enzo]

You guys crack me up. What are the vast majority of pros (or almost every one, if you prefer) thinking when they do this? Don't tell me you don't know that.

pj
chgo

Not sure if i follow your question perfectly, but I'll tell you what they are thinking, or what their instincts are telling them. what is the highest percentage possible way i can get this ball in the hole. THEN, that leads to outside english cinch strokes on 9balls. that is just a fact and i have watched enough pros play high pressure 9ball to feel very comfortable with this assessment.

my style is to just use what works, getting into these discussions i guess is slightly helpful, but only if you give good, sound information. telling people that natural english doesn't help their percentage in cinching balls is counterproductive in my mind (ie, it will screw people up). don't get me wrong, people have some good thoughts here, i just think a philosophy of "use center ball if you aren't playing position" is flawed, it's a bit more complicated than that as the methods of the best players in the world clearly show you.

 

[jsp]

This is where I differ - it didn't look to me like any more spin than the CB would pick up from hitting the OB with stun. In other words, it looks like Efren hit the CB low/center, not low/left.

If you think so.

But why do you think he didn't just roll the CB?

This is the kind of appeal to authority I'm dismissing: the kind where you name one or a few great players who may do it (how do you even know?) and ignore all the rest who may or may not. It's a logical fallacy. That doesn't prove you're wrong, but you haven't really demonstrated anything either.

I'm not trying to prove anything by "appealing to authority". I'm just pointing out that many top professionals indeed spin balls in to cinch shots. They must have a reason for doing it, and the logical reason to me is that they do so because years of experience tells them that doing so gives them the highest percentage to pocket the ball.

And if you don't think that many professionals use outside to cinch shots, then I say that you haven't been paying very much attention when you watch the pros play.

Here are more examples from the Yang vs. Orcullo match. Look at the 9 balls pocketed in these racks, especially racks 11 and 23.

Yang vs. Orcullo - Rack 2
Yang vs. Orcullo - Rack 4
Yang vs. Orcullo - Rack 6
Yang vs. Orcullo - Rack 11
Yang vs. Orcullo - Rack 21
Yang vs. Orcullo - Rack 23

I stepped through all 23 racks of the that first day. If Yang/Orcullo weren't straight in on the 9, or if there was no combination, or if they weren't bridging off the rail, then it can be observed that they use outside english to cinch almost every cut shot on the 9 ball.

Again, I'm not proving anything, just giving some data. It is evident that for many pros, using outside english to cinch shots works for them.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

why do you think he didn't just roll the CB?

I think Efren made a (gasp!) mistake. Whether or not you use outside english to prevent throw, the worst thing to do is to use stun when you don't have to. That makes the shot the most sensitive to throw and sidespin errors.

pj
chgo

 

[jsp]

I think Efren made a (gasp!) mistake. Whether or not you use outside english to prevent throw, the worst thing to do is to use stun when you don't have to. That makes the shot the most sensitive to throw and sidespin errors.

I think it's kinda silly to think you know more about how Efren should pocket balls than he does. I think Efren knows what's best for Efren.

...and I still think he used outside.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think it's kinda silly to think you know more about how Efren should pocket balls than he does. I think Efren knows what's best for Efren.

I think it's very silly that you assume nobody can know more about the physics of pool than a pro. It wasn't too long ago that most of them denied the existence of throw. How well they play is no indication of what they know.

...and I still think he used outside.

That's nice.

pj
chgo

 

[JoeW]

Here is a thought for you.

Most baseball players exhibit some sort of superstitious behavior as they step up to bat. Many (not all) wind up the bat either forward or backward. If you ask them if this is necessary, they will tell you that it is and they can give many instances in which they did or did not get a home run because they wound up the bat as it should be wound up.

One of the interesting things about superstitious behavior is that we always have a good reason for it, that is, -- a plausible reason. This acceptable reason is needed to explain our success and to justify the continued use of the behavior. Belief in superstitious behavior leads to a self fulfilling prophecy.

I conclude that just because pros include some form of superstitious behavior in their shot making it does not follow that it leads to "better" play. Reyes tends to lift his stick on the follow through of many shots. This does not mean that you should do it.

"Every time we throw a virgin in the volcano we do not have an earthquake so somebody go get another of those irritating virgins that my wife hates because they are always tempting me," said the chief.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Okay, I hope this puts the argument to rest.

First, it's very simple. Professional players are not going to know more about the physics of pool than anyone else. There is a whole science behind pool that they don't understand nor do they need to. It's the same as asking the centerfielder of the New York Yankees to explain the rate of gravity. He doesn't need to know about that stuff. He just needs to catch fly balls. If you want a physics professor in Yankee Stadium's centerfield this Spring, you might want to consider finding a very fast left fielder.

Second, Efren Reyes is going to shoot a 9-ball shot a certain way not because of superstition but because he knows it works. I do the same thing. Most players once they reach a certain level (B speed to A speed, I'd say) do this. They recognize routes that are safe where they can hit the game-winning shot firm and allow the cue-ball to safely race around a bit and come to rest. One particular route is allowing the cue-ball to cross the center of the table and that's kinda what Reyes is doing. That doesn't mean the actual english is more consistent for pocketing. It means the english is more consistent for cue-ball travel.

Reyes is a pro. He became a pro by becoming incredibly proficient at using all types of english. A center-ball shot he makes 99.9% of the time is probably going to be 99.7% when he's using a little outside english. Is it less than his centerball percentage? Yes but not enough to worry about and he gets the added benefit of a predictable cueball path.

I am sure there is a physics professor out there that will give you the answer you want to hear but the truth is, that doesn't matter. You just have to pocket balls and you're going to have to become proficient at using english.

 

[jsp]

I think it's very silly that you assume nobody can know more about the physics of pool than a pro.

And I think it's silly that you assume that I made that assumption.

I never implied that professional pool players know more about the physics of the game than anyone else. What I have implied is that these pool pros know the best way to execute the shot for them.

But let's give a little credit to intelligence of these pros. You don't think that Efren knows that stunning the CB without english maximes throw? He probably can't derive all the equations, but I think 40+ years playing world-class pool would eventually present him with this knowledge.

So why would Efren shoot those two shots the way he did if he already knew that it would reduce his chances to pocket the balls? Or do you not think he knew that?

BTW, have you looked at the Yang/Orcullo videos? Did Yang and Orcullo both make multiple mistakes by choosing not to roll in those 9 balls? They need to take a few high school level physics classes as well to bump up their games a ball or two.

 

[jsp]

Okay, I hope this puts the argument to rest.

First, it's very simple. Professional players are not going to know more about the physics of pool than anyone else. There is a whole science behind pool that they don't understand nor do they need to. It's the same as asking the centerfielder of the New York Yankees to explain the rate of gravity. He doesn't need to know about that stuff. He just needs to catch fly balls. If you want a physics professor in Yankee Stadium's centerfield this Spring, you might want to consider finding a very fast left fielder.

Second, Efren Reyes is going to shoot a 9-ball shot a certain way not because of superstition but because he knows it works. I do the same thing. Most players once they reach a certain level (B speed to A speed, I'd say) do this. They recognize routes that are safe where they can hit the game-winning shot firm and allow the cue-ball to safely race around a bit and come to rest. One particular route is allowing the cue-ball to cross the center of the table and that's kinda what Reyes is doing. That doesn't mean the actual english is more consistent for pocketing. It means the english is more consistent for cue-ball travel.

Reyes is a pro. He became a pro by becoming incredibly proficient at using all types of english. A center-ball shot he makes 99.9% of the time is probably going to be 99.7% when he's using a little outside english. Is it less than his centerball percentage? Yes but not enough to worry about and he gets the added benefit of a predictable cueball path.

I am sure there is a physics professor out there that will give you the answer you want to hear but the truth is, that doesn't matter. You just have to pocket balls and you're going to have to become proficient at using english.

Good post Jude.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

... They recognize routes that are safe where they can hit the game-winning shot firm and allow the cue-ball to safely race around a bit and come to rest. One particular route is allowing the cue-ball to cross the center of the table and that's kinda what Reyes is doing. That doesn't mean the actual english is more consistent for pocketing. It means the english is more consistent for cue-ball travel.

I think you're probably right that this is why Reyes stuns the shot rather than rolls it. So I was wrong to say he "made a mistake" - I should have said he chose a less-than-optimal shot in exchange for a significantly safer CB path.

pj
chgo

 

[Randy9Ball]

And what if it's frozen? Do you still like center ball?
I'd put a little inside english on it.

Good Lord Joey, that avatar!! ;-)

 

[Jal]

...I'm not trying to prove anything by "appealing to authority". I'm just pointing out that many top professionals indeed spin balls in to cinch shots. They must have a reason for doing it, and the logical reason to me is that they do so because years of experience tells them that doing so gives them the highest percentage to pocket the ball...

Jsp, why do you think they do so, ie, what is the physical or psycho/motor reason?

You mentioned scratching earlier. That's certainly one good reason since rolling the cueball with firm speed does raise that possibility on a lot of shots. But as far as actually making the OB head for center pocket, having looked at the graphs and knowing the additional problems that squirt and swerve present (not big ones to a pro or reasonably experienced player of course, but they're still there), do you see any other advantage? Cut angle correction by throw is one, but very minor, and almost certainly outweighed by the attendant problem of throw variation with tip offset, in addition to "squerve".

Jim

 

[Patrick Johnson]

jsp:
And I think it's silly that you assume that I made that assumption. I never implied that professional pool players know more about the physics of the game than anyone else. What I have implied is that these pool pros know the best way to execute the shot for them.

Not exactly. Your claim was that Efren's way of shooting that shot supports the idea that it's the optimal way for shotmaking.

But let's give a little credit to intelligence of these pros. You don't think that Efren knows that stunning the CB without english maximes throw?

I don't know whether or not he knows that consciously. I know that he can shoot it as if he knows it without actually knowing it.

He probably can't derive all the equations

Neither can I, but I don't think it makes anybody a worse player to be able to.

... So why would Efren shoot those two shots the way he did if he already knew that it would reduce his chances to pocket the balls? Or do you not think he knew that?

I thought you were arguing that Efren's choice of how to shoot that shot must mean it increases the shotmaking percentage. Now you're saying that Efren knows it doesn't. I guess that means you've changed your own mind about it? That's progress.

pj
chgo

 

[jsp]

Jsp, why do you think they do so, ie, what is the physical or psycho/motor reason?

You mentioned scratching earlier. That's certainly one good reason since rolling the cueball with firm speed does raise that possibility on a lot of shots. But as far as actually making the OB head for center pocket, having looked at the graphs and knowing the additional problems that squirt and swerve present (not big ones to a pro or reasonably experienced player of course, but they're still there), do you see any other advantage? Cut angle correction by throw is one, but very minor, and almost certainly outweighed by the attendant problem of throw variation with tip offset, in addition to "squerve".

Jim

The pros shoot the way they do because experience has dictated to them that is the way to maximize their chances of potting the ball. We have to look at the entire picture, not just the disadvantages of applying english.

I think the thing we're overlooking, which I posted previously, is the accuracy (or inaccuracy) of your stroke when hitting the top side of the ball to execute natural roll. Theory says that for best accuracy you should hit the dead center of the CB (on both axes). But for many shots, the balls are two close together to achieve natural roll if you strike the dead center of the CB. So for a firm stroke, you would have to hit higher up on the CB to achieve natural roll on CB/OB contact. If the balls are close enough together, then you pretty much have to hit 0.4R above the equator to achieve natural roll right away. That's 100% english, in the vertical dimension.

Of course, every time you hit the CB off-center, your shooting accuracy goes down. Again, think of striking the CB when it's close to the rail. So for some pros, shooting every cut shot with natural roll probably doesn't maximize their overall shooting accuracy. They'd rather take their chances with the variables of squerve, which are relatively smaller to them, than the stroke inaccuracies of rolling the CB.

For the Efrens of this world who have already mastered the intricacies of english, squirt, and swerve, the inaccuracies of rolling the CB outweigh the risks of applying side english, which subconsciously makes choose not to roll the CB. But for the ones who haven't mastered english/squerve to the degree of the Efrens, they'd probably best take their chances rolling the CB.

 

[jsp]

... So why would Efren shoot those two shots the way he did if he already knew that it would reduce his chances to pocket the balls? Or do you not think he knew that?

I thought you were arguing that Efren's choice of how to shoot that shot must mean it increases the shotmaking percentage...

I did, at least Efren's overall shotmaking percentage.

...Now you're saying that Efren knows it doesn't.

We're talking about stunning the CB without outside english. I'm pretty confident Efren knows that stun without english increases throw. But I'm not the one who thinks Efren shot stun without english in the video. You do. So you still haven't answered my question.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I think Efren shot those shots with outside draw b/c; that almost eliminates the skid, a scratch would be almost impossible to the other end rail pockets ( too far and side pockets are eliminated ) , with the tip already on the cloth ( he does that on almost all shots ) he wouldn't have to raise the tip much and that with the tip very low it's easie for him to see the "patama" or hit and his draw stroke is more consistent with his lag stroke.

 

[JoeW]

JSP said, "... For the Efrens of this world who have already mastered the intricacies of English, squirt, and swerve, the inaccuracies of rolling the CB outweigh the risks of applying side english, which subconsciously makes choose not to roll the CB. But for the ones who haven't mastered English / squerve to the degree of the Efrens, they'd probably best take their chances rolling the CB."

And that is probably the best answer, IMO.

BTW another thought occurred to me while driving my car and thinking about this thread. I have not heard it stated before but it is congruent with JSP?s type of thinking and a prior comment I made.

Efren at times (often?) raises the tip of his stick on the follow through. Assuming the pros have good reason for what they do, I wonder why he would do this.

Well, I said to my self, one reason would be that in order to lift the stick straight up in the air (have to check that) one would need a locked (or semi-locked) wrist. I wonder if over time he has learned to lock his wrist on follow through and stick in the air is a consequence of this type of shot.

I know most people wind up with the cue tip on the cloth but I wonder if (superstitious behavior aside) he has a good reason for his style of play? --- Hmm have to give this a try.