Does Talent Matter?

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Inspired by the 'does age matter?' thread.

To become a world class player no doubt takes both great natural talent and extreme hard work.

To become a great amateur, maybe you need a little less of either factor.

How far do you think hard work can take you, if you only have average natural ability?
 
I think natural talent and a eye for the game is a huge part of what makes the top players who they are. I have seen people with only average skill play pool 8 hours a day every day for months on end and never get great at the game. On the other hand those people that rise to pro status tend to show alot of natural skill long before they have the time put into the game and are playing at nearly a pro level in a very short amount of time. All the practice in the world would not help a person with average natural talent make it to a level where they could win the Worlds or the US Open.
 
To be a good player takes practice and skill acquisition.
To be a world class pro, ya gotta have talent.
Just like any other discipline. Of course, there are some Pete Roses out there.
 
In my opinion raw talent can be overcome by shear drive, and commitment. Think of young ball players in little league who dominated because of their natural talent. Then as they grow older the field begins to narrow as the level balances with other talented players.
At this point players like Pete Rose overcame a level of lesser talent by working harder than the rest; thus his nickname, Charlie Hustle.
Another name comes to mind for you LA Dodger fans - do you remember a guy Mickey Hatcher? I do not remember the year but this guy no more looked, nor moved, nor played like a ball player, yet he was the World Series MVP.
And while I'm talking baseball, here's a paraquote from a kid who made the pros and was coached by a retire player named Jimmy Piersall, hitting coach (at the time) for the Chicago Cubs and it went something like this - the kid was in a slump and ask Piersall why he wasn't hitting as well as he knew he could? Piersall's response - It doesn't take talent to work hard. The kid is still playing in the pros and has been for over a dozen years. The jest of my reply may be - there is a champion in all of us if we so dare to challenge ourselves to achieved greatness. I might also suggest that self-imposed limitations are the greatest set-backs. Someday a player will surpass Tiger, just as Tiger will someday surpass Jack. A champion is a champion, and they come in many different shapes, sizes and packages, but they all have to work hard. You may have to set your work regimen a little higher if you are not as naturally talented as the next, but...
 
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I agree that hard work can get you almost as far as natural talent. The only difference is that someone without natural talent is going to have to put in alot more time and effort. Even then, a person with natural talent might be able to quit playing for a period of time and be able to run a rack and pick it right back up the first time they play. A person who relies purely on hard work may go down a few balls after quitting for a period of time. There are some pros that have made it to that level...and a high level in the pros by hard work. You can tell who had some natural talent and who had alot of natural talent. All in all, I like to think everyone has the ability within to do whatever they want, whether it is natural or not. So never tell yourself you cannot do something.

sarah
 
I don't really think 'talent' exists for playing good pool. It takes years to develop a good stroke, and to get 'the feels' like Keith said in another thread. If you are going to call it talent, then I think it would consist of being able to learn fast, to have sharp eyes, and control over your emotions (although not all good players have this).

I know of people who have played for 10-20 years, just about every day, and yet they still can't run a rack of 9-ball. Being good is not all about alot of practice, it is about practicing the right way. There are ways to practice that can hurt your game more than it can help you.

Getting an instructor can be helpful, but you have to be careful of whom you choose. World-class instructors, like Scott Lee and Fast Larry, and some other pros/former pros are probably the ones that anyone really trying to become a great player wants to learn from. The reason I say this is because an instructor can only train a student to become as good as they are. I wouldn't want to take lessons from anyone unless they are able to play at the pro level. Spend months or years training with someone who can't run racks and racks, and you won't be able to run racks and racks, you are gonna adopt that instructors playing style in one way or the other, and it will inhibit your game.

When I first started playing, for the first year I never had anyone to teach me. I would spend hours practicing every day, and when I was not playing, I was watching the top dogs at the poolroom I visited play. I was able to run my first rack of 9-ball after playing every day for a year. I never payed attention to mechanics, when I first started out, I picked up Willie Mosconi's guide to pocket billiards, and learned how to stand, grip, and bridge from the pictures. When I went into slumps, I went into them hard. In order to come out of slumps, I would simply stop playing for a week or two. When I came back, after a few hours of practice, I was back to my game, getting better. It was only until about a year ago that I really started paying attention to mechanics. It was around that time my game shot up to the highest level I ever played, I ran 8 and outs in one-hole alot, my high run in straight pool went from 44 to 67, and my record for consecutive racks in 9 ball was 4. Right now I'm in a slump, so I havent been practicing at all for about 2 weeks, with the exception of fiddling around with my mechanics in front of a mirror at home. I want to change my mechanics to hopefully bring my game to a higher level when I get back into playing. I am paying close attention to players grips, strokes, etc.

I think it is very important for anyone who wants to get better at pool, whether they are a natural for the game or not, to pay attention to different styles of play. You can use a certain type of mechanics for years, and if you don't pay attention, you won't know what can inhibit you from reaching a higher level.

My 2 cents :)
 
My question is y become pro ?It so hard out there .The pro events have gone so much in to politics it crazy .When you look at some of the pro they get hook on drugs just to handle the heat of matches. And action on the side. Stay up all nite .So were did thte talent go? I loved pool from the first time started to play, and i wished one day to go pro ,But the big picture came to me when i started seeing how a lot of the pro's get when they get to the big time . I can't see my self acting like that .So looking at what is going on now Cory was the greatest play of 2001,And now look at him he has not won a tour stop in 2 years .And y because he got cocky And and things happen to u when u think u are the best in the world .And realy u r not.So does talent matter.I helps but A little luck is not bad at all...i rather be lucky then good..
 
Does age...Does talent matter? These are both excellent posts. All good instructors and good players stress the importance of mechanics. To say you will only play as good as your coach, is to say that Tiger would only have become as good as his father as a youngster, and Butch Harman as an adult, therefore I disagree that you will only become as good as your teacher, and that you will pick up their tendencies. I am not saying this won't happen, but for each of us we have our own style, spirit and haunting ghosts. Through commitment to excellence you will build on your strengthes and overcome your weaknesses.
I do agree that the parrot in us will mimic good players and help our process in finding oneself, but then you must be willing to watch, which is difficult for most because they just want to play.
As LastTwo said, "...it is about practicing the right way," and, "I really started paying attention to my mechanics... MY game shot up."
Referencing books, players and instructors are our sources for knowledge, but in the end there is no end to how good a player can become...
 
I kind of disagree with LastTwo. I never had any instruction until I had been playing for about 3 years. But yet when I got my first lesson from Mark Wilson, I already had the right fundamentals and could run a rack within the first few months I started playing. I learned all of that by watching other players in the pool room. So maybe it was natural or I have good hand-eye coordination. I also disagree that you only want teachers who are top players. Some people have the ability to play well and not have the ability to teach, while others have the ability to teach 20 times better than they play. If you are practicing by yourself you do have to practice the right way and also have a little variety so you don't get bored. But also don't forget practicing with someone...no matter how they play...they can teach you something as long as you are paying attention. I have noticed different shots or angles to try by playing someone that I am giving the last 4. Point being...you can always learn something.
 
I mean don't take lessons from someone who never was able to play all that good. If you take lessons from someone who at one timed played like a pro, thats ok. I wouldn't want to take lessons from someone who never played all that good. Truth in knowledge comes from experience, otherwise you got some guy teaching based on hypothesis. It's better for someone to learn from experience instead of an educated guess.
 
I agree Sarah, If you going to teach you better be able to demonstrate what you preach, especially if you expect someone to practice it. As far as theory goes, a good player and/or teacher has learned what is fact and what is not.
And with all practice sessions it is most important to not get bored, whereas by playing another player does keep you in the random mode of challenge, thus keeping your edge when the time to compete arises.
I believe that if a player gets bored when practicing, then more damage will be done than good. My suggestion is to leave the room and come back when you are serious about improving. I have noticed that when world class players are just practicing, they are almost always at the table alone. And if they ae not practicing or competing they are watching good players - both to see if a player reveals a weakness that they can use to capitalize on when they meet in a match, or to learn something that they may not have put much importance on in their own game; re: the break.
There's a lot of ways to get good, but it is still up to the individual to create the mind-set and the skills of a champion. (Emphasis on mind-set).
 
I think a certain amount of talent is essential to elevate your game to a championship level. Sarah said she was able to run a rack within approximately 3 months from starting to play the game. There is no doubt in my mind that she has some natural talent. I have seen players practice for hours at a time over a period of a couple of years and cannot run a rack.

On the other hand, if a person has some talent, the desire to work hard and the ability to learn, they can certainly reach the upper limits of their ability level.
 
I agree Rick, there is more than sheer talent needed. It does take hard work and desire and definitely ability to learn. Natural talent just gives you a little headstart. But hard work and desire can get you to the top as well
 
Why do people think that players with natural talent, the ability to play well, don't work hard at their game? A person's ability, his physical attributes, and state of mind, will dictate what level of play he can reach. How hard he works at it will dictate at what range in that level he will play.

The best the majority of pool players can expect to reach is to play at the "C" level. Which is pretty good. How hard they work will determine if they will be a top C or just an average C player.

Sarah, are you telling us that you don't spend hours on the practice table? The only person who I have heard who really didn't practice was Mosconi.

To be a top player in the world one needs all the help they can get. Like perfect vision, depth perception, body coordination, a healthy body and a proper mental attitude, and then they still have to work at it to be at the top of their game. Why? Because all the other top guns in the world are working at their game and the difference between all the top players is so small that any little edge makes the difference between winning and being an also ran.

Too bad pool doesn't have a ladder system for competition. Then you would really be able to see the different levels of play. A person starting out would play in a "D" ladder. He wins that he moves up to a "C" ladder. Wins that he moves up to "B", "A", "Double A", "Semi-pro", "Pro". Only the best could move through all the ladders to get to the Pro level. Then you could have "Pro Tournaments" where only Pros would play, not the way it is now where Pros are playing against "A" players.

Jake - Only a "C" player, but hard work has placed me at the top of the C players with a chance of becoming a B player. But no real chance of reaching the A level, let alone the Pro level. But that doesn't mean that I have given up trying. I just take a realistic view at what my real potential really is and am happy with that.
 
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