Does this action constitute unsportsmanship?

[walrus_3d]

i dont think outgoing players should have the right to touch any ball, even if it has stopped or it is in the pocket. why do they need to touch balls??? their inning is over. this solves a lot of little problems too.

It makes sense for the outgoing player to pick up the cue ball after a foul on a cluttered table. If the incoming player accidentally hits another ball while picking up the cue ball, they give ball in hand right back. The outgoing player doesn't have to worry about that, they've already fouled.

Definitely, though, the cue ball should be either slow-rolling and well away from any contact, or stopped completely, before the ball is picked up.

I agree, though, with the BIH ruling. It's a foul, and unsportsmanlike, but stopping a breakout isn't necessarily guaranteed to prevent a loss. He still lost the rack. Doing the same thing to the 8 ball (or to the cue ball when you're on the 8) would definitely be loss of rack, to which I think everybody agrees. The point for instances like this is to inform the tournament directors or league operators (as appropriate) so that if a pattern of misconduct emerges, the player can be ejected and anyone they cheated out of a match can be reinstated to the tournament.

 

[Black-Balled]

It makes sense for the outgoing player to pick up the cue ball after a foul on a cluttered table. If the incoming player accidentally hits another ball while picking up the cue ball, they give ball in hand right back. ...

I disagree. The fouling player has no need to handle the ball: his inning is over.

Not that it isn't common practice to deliver the BIH to incoming player, but if there were a rule to be established- an recognized- it would not be in line with the logic above.

 

[MoonshineMattK]

seriously, why dont we just have a rule that the outgoing player can never touch any ball. its easy and there is none of this.

It's already the rule.


I cant find a link and I'm not going to type it all out.
Deliberate fouls are defined in the BCA General Rules

It is a deliberate foul to do anything during your turn at the table other than a legal stroke of the cue ball.

You may only touch the cue ball if you have ball in hand


1.40 Deliberate Foul:

a. intentionally strike, move, or deflect the cue ball

b. pick up or contact the cue ball to end your inning

c. cause any ball in play to move by contacting or moving any part of the table

d. stop or deflect any ball that is in motion, or intentionally move any stationary object ball that is in play

e. catch a ball falling into a pocket

f. place your hand into a pocket wile any ball in play is moving near that pocket.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

It's already the rule.


I cant find a link and I'm not going to type it all out.
Deliberate fouls are defined in the BCA General Rules

It is a deliberate foul to do anything during your turn at the table other than a legal stroke of the cue ball.

You may only touch the cue ball if you have ball in hand


1.40 Deliberate Foul:

a. intentionally strike, move, or deflect the cue ball

b. pick up or contact the cue ball to end your inning

c. cause any ball in play to move by contacting or moving any part of the table

d. stop or deflect any ball that is in motion, or intentionally move any stationary object ball that is in play

e. catch a ball falling into a pocket

f. place your hand into a pocket wile any ball in play is moving near that pocket.

If you look up Unsportsmanlike Conduct, you'll see how this situation is also covered there and how the referee has greater flexibility to levy a more appropriate ruling. Many "deliberate fouls" could be interpreted as careless but not cheating. Cheating would fall under unsportsmanlike which could yield a more severe penalty.

 

[akaTrigger]

What bothers me is I see unsportsmanlike conduct all the freakin' time and no one does any thing about - no warning, no foul, no loss of game.

It's almost like unsportsmanlike conduct is a TD's opinion of the instance. It's either not fully enforced, or the conduct is not reported or something.

I dunno.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

What bothers me is I see unsportsmanlike conduct all the freakin' time and no one does any thing about - no warning, no foul, no loss of game.

It's almost like unsportsmanlike conduct is a TD's opinion of the instance. It's either not fully enforced, or the conduct is not reported or something.

I dunno.

Yeah, if nothing were done here, I would have been tempted to say, "I already had ball in hand so how are you going to penalize my opponent?" If the ref then says, "I'm giving him a warning." I would then move all the balls to the pockets and say, "Please give me a warning too then."

 

[enzo]

It makes sense for the outgoing player to pick up the cue ball after a foul on a cluttered table. If the incoming player accidentally hits another ball while picking up the cue ball, they give ball in hand right back. The outgoing player doesn't have to worry about that, they've already fouled.

Definitely, though, the cue ball should be either slow-rolling and well away from any contact, or stopped completely, before the ball is picked up.

I agree, though, with the BIH ruling. It's a foul, and unsportsmanlike, but stopping a breakout isn't necessarily guaranteed to prevent a loss. He still lost the rack. Doing the same thing to the 8 ball (or to the cue ball when you're on the 8) would definitely be loss of rack, to which I think everybody agrees. The point for instances like this is to inform the tournament directors or league operators (as appropriate) so that if a pattern of misconduct emerges, the player can be ejected and anyone they cheated out of a match can be reinstated to the tournament.

your first point, why in the world would the outgoing player want to stop the incoming player from a chance at ball in hand. are u sayiung the rule should be "outgoing player MUST pick up the cb on a cluttered table". that doesnt make sense. and why, if there is a chance for a foul, is it better for the incoming player to do this? i just dont agree at all. i would think a "double foul" for that outgoing player could possibly be construed as loss of game, causing even mor eproblems.

but yes, i totally agree with all else you mentioned. i just think it would be so simple if the outgoing player never touched a ball... its simple, easy and precludes many problems.

 

[ignomirello]

I Love it !!!!

Yeah, if nothing were done here, I would have been tempted to say, "I already had ball in hand so how are you going to penalize my opponent?" If the ref then says, "I'm giving him a warning." I would then move all the balls to the pockets and say, "Please give me a warning too then."

:thumbup: I Love it :thumbup:

 

[ignomirello]

report it !

What bothers me is I see unsportsmanlike conduct all the freakin' time and no one does any thing about - no warning, no foul, no loss of game.

It's almost like unsportsmanlike conduct is a TD's opinion of the instance. It's either not fully enforced, or the conduct is not reported or something.

I dunno.

Report it

 

[akaTrigger]

Report it

Some people see unsportsmanlike conduct all the time but never tell the TD.

I admit, I'm one of the guilty ones. But then again, no one does anything about crappy behavior, so why complain? BTW, crappy behavior is unsportsmanlike conduct, but it's not enforced.

 

[tucson9ball]

Raced to 8. Score was 6-6.

In rack 13, 4 balls left and my opponent was solidly hooked behind the 9. The 7- and 9-ball were in extreme close proximity, with the 7-ball frozen to the side rail about half a ball distance from the side pocket. Even with BIH, getting the CB from 6 to 7 wasn't easy.

He missed the kick by some margin, and the CB was on its way to the long rail and was in straight path to kick the 9-ball out, which would allow me a much more margin to play position for the 7. Upon realizing that he missed the kick, he immediately tapped the CB literally 2 seconds before it contacted the 9-ball, and handed me BIH.

I consulted the TD with what happened and asked for a win for the rack, but was only rewarded with BIH. I was lucky enough to play the CB 3-rail up table, and shot the 7-ball pocket speed, and it just caught the point and dropped. Although it didn't matter, I'm wondering what the ruling is for this sort of situation.

After reading all the posts and rereading this OP, I would have to say the TD's word is law. The TD knows what the rule is in your given tournament and made a judgement.

There was no referee watching so it is your word against the opponent. The TD did the best call given the circumstances. You ended up winning by running out. End of story...

 

[tucson9ball]

Some people see unsportsmanlike conduct all the time but never tell the TD.

I admit, I'm one of the guilty ones. But then again, no one does anything about crappy behavior, so why complain? BTW, crappy behavior is unsportsmanlike conduct, but it's not enforced.

Unless their is something physical or foul language witnessed by a referee, sportsmanship is very subjective. It's a tough call....

 

[pt109]

Yeah, if nothing were done here, I would have been tempted to say, "I already had ball in hand so how are you going to penalize my opponent?" If the ref then says, "I'm giving him a warning." I would then move all the balls to the pockets and say, "Please give me a warning too then."

Like this solution best.
It's will make players, refs, and tds solve the problem...
..instead of passing the buck.

 

[enzo]

It's already the rule.


I cant find a link and I'm not going to type it all out.
Deliberate fouls are defined in the BCA General Rules

It is a deliberate foul to do anything during your turn at the table other than a legal stroke of the cue ball.

You may only touch the cue ball if you have ball in hand


1.40 Deliberate Foul:

a. intentionally strike, move, or deflect the cue ball

b. pick up or contact the cue ball to end your inning

c. cause any ball in play to move by contacting or moving any part of the table

d. stop or deflect any ball that is in motion, or intentionally move any stationary object ball that is in play

e. catch a ball falling into a pocket

f. place your hand into a pocket wile any ball in play is moving near that pocket.

good, im glad it is already a rule. it should be. i did not know this, nice post. but now the question is, why is it not enforced. under my way of thinking, if you foul (eg not hit the one ball in 9ball), then pick up the cb-- you should definitely be under jeapardy of losing that game. what im saying is this is they way i think we should play.... but we dont, we allow outgoing players to touch the cb after a foul. i think it would solve a lot of little problems if it was solidly known that outgoing players cant touch the cb, or any ball.

 

[walrus_3d]

your first point, why in the world would the outgoing player want to stop the incoming player from a chance at ball in hand.

of course the outgoing player doesn't want to stop the incoming player from fouling. the tournament director doesn't want the incoming player to accidentally foul by picking up the ball, so it really does make more sense for the player who's already committed a foul to pick up the ball.

are u sayiung the rule should be "outgoing player MUST pick up the cb on a cluttered table". that doesnt make sense.

yes, and yes it does, for the reason i just restated above. in order to give the incoming player a chance to actually shoot, you remove the chance of them fouling before they're even on their shot.

and why, if there is a chance for a foul, is it better for the incoming player to do this? i just dont agree at all. i would think a "double foul" for that outgoing player could possibly be construed as loss of game, causing even mor eproblems.

okay, as far as double foul goes, let's say you're shooting and accidentally move an object ball, which may be a foul in the tourney you're playing. in your reaction to moving the object ball, you accidentally foul the cue ball with your stick. is that a double foul and loss of game, or is that two accidents, and a BIH? If the outgoing player, having fouled already, INTENTIONALLY
moves another ball, then yeah, that's a big deal. if the cue ball is so badly locked up in a nest of balls that it's impossible to get the ball out without fouling... you can't really call that intentional. it's the INTENT that makes the sportsmanship violation, not the foul itself.

but yes, i totally agree with all else you mentioned. i just think it would be so simple if the outgoing player never touched a ball... its simple, easy and precludes many problems.

i think it'd be easier if people never fouled.

In response to another post I couldn't quote in time, the BCA rule states that "you may not pick up the cue ball to end your inning." if you've already fouled the cue ball, and have given up ball in hand, picking up the cue ball doesn't end the inning. it was already over. handing the ball to your opponent is actually the sportsmanlike thing to do in that case.

 

[vagabond]

Lose of game, maybe match.....randyg

Nah,not according to liberal minds.He has a bad day and has impulse control problem and hence grabbed the cue ball. His impulse control problem is a mitigating factor and he does not deserve such a punishment. It is violation of 8th ammendment of US constitution to give cruel and unusual punishment.LOL

Joking aside,let me get serious here.This kind of situations are the result of either not knowing the rules or not implementing the rules consistently in the tournaments. I saw even pro s grabbing the cue ball before a complete stop. In nontournament situations this kind of problems sometimes are the result of a player not accepting the rules. Several other inappropiate behaviors were allowed in pool including in tournaments and the problem is more deep rooted than people acknowledge.There is not much anybody could do anything about these behaviors unless rules are applied consistently and to every inappropriate situation.The whole issue is a slippery slope. In one of the matches in USOpen one pocket tournament at Riviera in May 2011, one time I saw Effren STANDING only few feet away from the table when his opponent was shooting the ball and Effren was standing in the line of shooting.Nobody seemed to have any problem with that.That is where the problem is.


This sport CAN`t be cleaned up because:

A.Some people are UNWILLING to consider certain behaviors as inappropriate.They think that u are silly/fussy/winer if you tell them not to behave in that manner (common examples which some don`t consider as inappropriate- like producing crinkling sound by playing with a bag of potato chips when the opponent is at the table, standing around the table without sitting in the chair when the opponent is at the table, putting the hand into the pocket to catch the cue ball dropping into the pocket).
One time in the past, I had argument on this form with one of the highly respected posters here regards a player standing when the opponent was at the table.Around 2004 in a one pocket tripple AAA tournament I found effren standing at the table when his opponent was shooting.This poster argued with me saying that it was perfectly alright for effren to stand around and not taking his seat when his opponent was shooting. This is a slippery slope.

B.The problems are DEEP ROOTED and MANY pool players REFUSE to abide by the rules. Travel with me and I will SHOW you these inappropriate behaviors in EVERY pool room in EVERY town.

 

[MoonshineMattK]

good, im glad it is already a rule. it should be. i did not know this, nice post. but now the question is, why is it not enforced. under my way of thinking, if you foul (eg not hit the one ball in 9ball), then pick up the cb-- you should definitely be under jeapardy of losing that game. what im saying is this is they way i think we should play.... but we dont, we allow outgoing players to touch the cb after a foul. i think it would solve a lot of little problems if it was solidly known that outgoing players cant touch the cb, or any ball.

Running a tournament or league is not a cake walk.
It can be a thankless pain in the a$$.
In the case of the original post the tournament director might not know this rule himself.
The only reason I became educated about it is we had an identical problem with a player. (he no longer stops the cue ball :thumbup

I agree with you, it would be nice if these rules were more tightly enforced.
I think most people just dont know the rules.

Education is the key.
Plenty of pool players only read the part in the rules that states fouls dont accumulate believe they can only foul once per inning.

 

[Hungarian]

Here's a thought...

Isn't there a rule that says "...if you disturb balls while the cue ball is in motion and the cue ball would have hit the disturbed balls it's a foul and the imcoming player can reposition the balls with BIH?

If yes....

...then wouldn't you consider this sort of the same but in reverse order i.e., fouling first and then disturbing the cue ball while it's in motion where the cue ball would have hit other balls?

If yes....

...then there should be a rule where the incoming player can rearrange the balls the way they would have ended up and they get ball in hand...

 

[poolnoob]

Just watch the mika n svb match , IMO mika did try to pull a fast one there

 

[Lexicologist71]

Loss of game at the very least.