Agreed, with a warning and if happens again, lost of match
Does this action constitute unsportsmanship?
- Thread starter donuteric
- Start date
Agreed, with a warning and if happens again, lost of match
You are still wrong, Mon!
It is not the outgoing player's obligation to assist the efforts of his opponent and no rule should be designed to do such.
This is war.
You are correct that handing the ball to an opponenent is- I would say usually- done as a display of courtesy, but you must realize that scenarios like fouling players stopping the CB from changing the layout do arise.
Therefore, the logical rule should be that an outgoing player cannot touch the CB.
And your example of brushing multiple balls possibly resulting in multiple fouls? Once a player moves a ball he should not be repositioning it...therefore your logic is based on a faulty premise.
It is not the outgoing player's obligation to assist the efforts of his opponent and no rule should be designed to do such.
This is war.
You are correct that handing the ball to an opponenent is- I would say usually- done as a display of courtesy, but you must realize that scenarios like fouling players stopping the CB from changing the layout do arise.
Therefore, the logical rule should be that an outgoing player cannot touch the CB.
And your example of brushing multiple balls possibly resulting in multiple fouls? Once a player moves a ball he should not be repositioning it...therefore your logic is based on a faulty premise.
of course the outgoing player doesn't want to stop the incoming player from fouling. the tournament director doesn't want the incoming player to accidentally foul by picking up the ball, so it really does make more sense for the player who's already committed a foul to pick up the ball.
yes, and yes it does, for the reason i just restated above. in order to give the incoming player a chance to actually shoot, you remove the chance of them fouling before they're even on their shot.
okay, as far as double foul goes, let's say you're shooting and accidentally move an object ball, which may be a foul in the tourney you're playing. in your reaction to moving the object ball, you accidentally foul the cue ball with your stick. is that a double foul and loss of game, or is that two accidents, and a BIH? If the outgoing player, having fouled already, INTENTIONALLY
moves another ball, then yeah, that's a big deal. if the cue ball is so badly locked up in a nest of balls that it's impossible to get the ball out without fouling... you can't really call that intentional. it's the INTENT that makes the sportsmanship violation, not the foul itself.
i think it'd be easier if people never fouled.
In response to another post I couldn't quote in time, the BCA rule states that "you may not pick up the cue ball to end your inning." if you've already fouled the cue ball, and have given up ball in hand, picking up the cue ball doesn't end the inning. it was already over. handing the ball to your opponent is actually the sportsmanlike thing to do in that case.
The logical rule is that you have to use logic. If the guy is merely fetching the cueball for you and there's no chance it's going to disturb anything, there's no harm. If the guy is deliberately stopping the cueball from breaking out balls, HE'S CHEATING. That's it. End of story. Flip the rulebook right to the Unsportsmanlike Conduct section and penalize him.
BAgreed re: common sense, but the context of my dialogue w/ the walrus is 'if there is a rule to be made', not whether there should be/ is one.
Yes, I was reiterating your point and adding a little to it.
the reason i said this doesnt make sense is because.... what are you going to do to me if i am outgoing and i refuse to pick up the cb? there is DEF no rule stating that you can lose a game or match if you dont pick up the ball for your opponent. i think more to the point though, i feel this picking up of the cb resposibility lies with the incoming player, i mean he is the one about to shoot. second to him would be TD i think.... i dont think the outgoing guy should ever touch it. i think the incoming player has to be cognizant and up the the rigors of playing a match-- i think we all do... i mean you have to do something to win a match.
ps, i dont think the TD cares if the incoming player fouls. i just think ideally they should want to run fair tournaments.
Of course it happens. That's why I think the focus should be on intentionally disturbing the table rather than accidentally. My argument there was that you can't have a draconian all-encompassing LOSS OF GAME penalty for what could very well be inadvertent contact, but you need the TD to be able to assess that penalty when the contact is clearly intentional. There has to be a grey area.
I think any league or tournament that made it illegal to hand the CB to your opponent when you give them BIH is cutting out a huge portion of the sportsmanship and cameraderie that can come from the game. It's just a bad idea. We're looking at one or two examples of people cheating and saying it negates the positive aspect of game play for hundreds of thousands of other people.
Re-read my original description of someone who accidentally fouls multiple balls in succession. I said "in his reaction to hitting the first ball" (i.e., trying to dodge out of the way after the fact), he accidentally fouls the cue ball. I never said anything about repositioning. And we're obviously talking about multiple sets of rules, so I'm not even going to get into whether you should be repositioning an object ball. But you never answered my question, either. Are multiple inadvertent fouls in the same shot multiple fouls or one foul? Is it loss of game or BIH?
Agree. However, the logicality leaves room for interpretation. I'd favor the rule simply states, "no touching the cueball in motion regardless a foul has been made or not."
I don't think I said the outgoing should be required to pick up the ball, by rule, I think I said the outgoing is the one who should pick up the ball, in a sportsmanlike manner, and hand it to his opponent. Pool is still a gentleman's game.
I think we're harping on semantics here. Walrus is right. It's considered gentlemanly to retrieve the cueball on a foul, especially if you've pocketed the cueball. When it can be safely assumed by both players that no collision will occur, it is customary to pick up the cueball, even if it's moving.
Ironically, I recently scolded a teammate of mine for picking up a moving cueball after pocketing the game-winning ball. I said to him, "That's a horrible habit you need to break. Pocket the 9, slide your bead, go get your break cue, THEN get the cueball."
Going back to the original subject, conceding a foul by grabbing the cueball is not unsportsmanlike conduct. It's the exact opposite. This is why I said you have to use logic. The act of picking up the cueball isn't what's wrong here. It's the act of deliberately changing the outcome of a shot that is the subject of debate.
you are driving an automobile in a desert and u come across a cross road and there is a Stop sign.There is no traffic for more than a mile long in any of the four directions (North ,south,east,west ).It looks like that some here will say that it is perfectly allright to continue to drive without stopping at the stop sign because there is no other vehicle for more than a mile long.
That kind of thinking will lead to a slippery slope.
That kind of thinking will lead to a slippery slope.
Wouldn't it just be simpler to say "don't touch the cue ball until it stops moving. Period."? Then whoever is closer can do get it, or the incoming player can get it, or whatever...
Making this a bit more complicated than it needs to be.
Although after reading this thread, if I were ever inclined to try and run a tournament, I think that would be included in the players meeting. Just a simple "Don't touch the cue ball until it stops moving, period. It will cost you the game, first time, second time the match. Any questions?" Then everyone is on the same page and no one has to worry about interpretations.
Making this a bit more complicated than it needs to be.
Although after reading this thread, if I were ever inclined to try and run a tournament, I think that would be included in the players meeting. Just a simple "Don't touch the cue ball until it stops moving, period. It will cost you the game, first time, second time the match. Any questions?" Then everyone is on the same page and no one has to worry about interpretations.
And I think we'd all agree you can be trusted to act accordingly. Kudos to you for the continued- to use your word,gentlemanly- discussion.
But in the interest of setting up the system to achieve the best result...outgoing player may not touch CB!:sorry:
GAwdammit! You and your sensi!
Sorry, I like semantics. :thumbup:
Absolute agreement on that one. The original question, Is it unsportsmanlike conduct to foul in order to prevent a collision that might leave your opponent in a better position? Yes, without question. The only issue is what the penalty should be.
Hanging, drawing, and quartering.
PhoolChark
New member
playing 9-ball I snookered my opponent who felt he couldn't hit the object ball.
instead of trying he goes up to the 4-ball and shoots it next to 2 other balls creating a cluster for me intentionally (he touches the 4-ball with his cue instead of the cue ball intentionally)
is this allowed? obviously it is ball in hand at least but is this viewed as strategy or unsportsmanlike behavior
thank you for any input
instead of trying he goes up to the 4-ball and shoots it next to 2 other balls creating a cluster for me intentionally (he touches the 4-ball with his cue instead of the cue ball intentionally)
is this allowed? obviously it is ball in hand at least but is this viewed as strategy or unsportsmanlike behavior
thank you for any input
The problem for the OP is that unless the TD saw the incident, the TD has to take his word, which the TD cannot do.
All the TD can really do is give BIH.
The OP unfortunately must then add his opponent to his mental list of untrustworthy pool players who in the future are to be watched carefully. The TD would hopefully add the opponent to his list of "questionables".
If a ref were officiating the incident, I'd expect loss of frame AND a warning.
All the TD can really do is give BIH.
The OP unfortunately must then add his opponent to his mental list of untrustworthy pool players who in the future are to be watched carefully. The TD would hopefully add the opponent to his list of "questionables".
If a ref were officiating the incident, I'd expect loss of frame AND a warning.