don't ban jump cues, ban phenolic tips- ?

Way back in the early 90s I took my crappiest stick and drilled out the shaft and inserted a large construction nail.
Talk about heavy!!! but the hit was phenomenal. Yes I did glue on a med-hard leather tip.
I showed it to Ray Schuler, he laughed said he made one early in his experimental days but he used a 16 penny nail not 20 penny.
I did try jumping with it, no butt. Found it was way to heavy for jumping, the cue ball went WILD! Today I wonder if cutting that nail down to say 1 inch and inserting... 🤔 .
In my current testing I had a tip that de-laminated and glued one layer on a phenolic tip. HUGE DIFFERENCE, it basically didn't work as well as the original Samsara Brk/Jump tip. Nor was it controllable for a shooting tip. ya, I'm an experimenter.
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garczar said:
key word is 'skill'. jumping with a short cue is too easy. nothing against jumping, just a piece of equipment that makes a shot basically a no-brainer. best tournament i've ever attended is DCC and they allow jumps but no shorty cues. never heard a complaint about the rule. kicking,especially multi-rails, takes far more skill than hopping with a jump cue.
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Agree... jumping with a short cue is very easy. The Cuetec 'Propel' makes jumping nearly as easy as screwing the cue together.

I'm an avid supporter of the jump shot, and by extension the jump cue. However I have zero problem with a rule set that excludes them. Much like I don't have a problem with odd ball break rules. You know what you're getting into before you start tourney. Zero rights to complain about anything imo. ...My point..? How many of the players at the DCC go there because of the no jump stick rule..? How many if polled prior to starting the tourney would agree to having jump sticks allowed..? My guess is the only hold outs would be the old schoolers that could never develop the tiny bit of skill it takes to perform the shot. ...and those with safe games so weak they need the helping hand.
 
40" (inch) isn't that the near normal length of Jump Cues?
If that's the case then when-where-why is the request to ban jump cues?

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The_JV said:
Agree... jumping with a short cue is very easy. The Cuetec 'Propel' makes jumping nearly as easy as screwing the cue together.

I'm an avid supporter of the jump shot, and by extension the jump cue. However I have zero problem with a rule set that excludes them. Much like I don't have a problem with odd ball break rules. You know what you're getting into before you start tourney. Zero rights to complain about anything imo. ...My point..? How many of the players at the DCC go there because of the no jump stick rule..? How many if polled prior to starting the tourney would agree to having jump sticks allowed..? My guess is the only hold outs would be the old schoolers that could never develop the tiny bit of skill it takes to perform the shot. ...and those with safe games so weak they need the helping hand.
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what's with the constant condascending tone?? you make it sound like not liking jump cues is something to sneer at. how about those whose ability to jump with a regular length cue is 'so weak they need a helping hand'??? fk short cues.
 
garczar said:
what's with the constant condascending tone?? you make it sound like not liking jump cues is something to sneer at. how about those whose ability to jump with a regular length cue is 'so weak they need a helping hand'??? fk short cues.
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Apologies... Maybe I'm mis-representing myself. It's easy to venture too far to one side of a discussion when you're continually reading the same old weak arguments. I keep seeing the DCC being touted as the gold standard of how the game should be played. Is it really..?.., I don't know. I'm a sucker for tradition, so maybe I can be converted.

While I agree that hoping over a ball with a short stick is easy. I honestly do believe the jump cue haters simply equate that to a successful shot and leave it at that. Just because hopping a ball is easy with today's equipment, does not automatically mean they have gained an advantage. ...so yes I'm sneering at the notion that the game is somehow diminished because of the short cue. I think it has added a dynamic that has altered the landscape from several angles of view. There's accustats video evidence of those against jump cues with clearly entertained faces after witnessing a successful shot with a vertical element. So even those who state they want it gone, still manage to be thrilled at the potential outcome on some level.

Regarding the full cue, I'm actually in the other camp and feel that jumping with a full cue "cheapens the game". As it's something I'd see tanked bar rats attempt to stay on a $1 valley. Not too far removed from the "scoop jump" we all love to see on our favourite table. Is it harder than jumping with a short cue...?..., most certainly. It's also a far more stupid maneuver if you care about the table. Which seems to be one of the more common arguments when complaining about the jump shot. Every time I see someone crank up their arm hoping to jump with a full cue I fear the worst. Not sure why the practice should be praised.

Ban the short cue, or don't. I don't care. Ban jumping at all, or don't. Still don't care. Pretend that jump cues have lessened the game and that somehow kicking is the next level in cue sports enlightenment.., then something needs to be said. I'm able to perform either discipline at a decent enough level to give opponents pause. I also can comment without bias as I have no romantic attachment to kicking, or reliance on jumping.

All of that said... Yes I find the people that complain the most about jump cues are those who have a weak CB when performing safeties.
 
The_JV said:
All of that said... Yes I find the people that complain the most about jump cues are those who have a weak CB when performing safeties.
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This is not my experience.

To be honest, I've never really considered the question from the standpoint of what I like to use when I play. I have always conceded that jump shots require skill, but my problem with them is that they too often amount to forgiveness for position poorly played. Hook yourself and, for decades, you had to pay the price, and the runout was usually dead when you hooked yourself. Position had to be played with greater skill before the short stick brought a little accident forgiveness to poor position play. Hence, while using the short stick requires skill, the existence of the short stick means that poorly played position will have fewer negative consequences in many situations. It cuts both ways.

Hence, your suggestion that the detractors on the subject of the short stick are those that don't play good safeties is pure speculation and it doesn't jive with my observation, which might also be inconclusive. On the other hand, those that make more position errors than the next guy are undeniable beneficiaries of the jump cue, because they need the position error forgiveness it brings more than the next guy.

What the amateurs are allowed to play with doesn't matter to me. I've never had a problem with the use of the aluminum bat in college baseball, but at pro level it's not permitted because it makes things too easy. Permitting the jump cue at amateur level is fine by me, but today's pros should be held to the highest possible standards in position play, and the fact that they are not paying as great a price for poor position play than those that came before them is, at very least, a shame in the eyes of this fan.

In the end, if jump cues help sell the game to the next generation of pool players and fans, I'm all for them.
 
The_JV said:
Apologies... Maybe I'm mis-representing myself. It's easy to venture too far to one side of a discussion when you're continually reading the same old weak arguments. I keep seeing the DCC being touted as the gold standard of how the game should be played. Is it really..?.., I don't know. I'm a sucker for tradition, so maybe I can be converted.

While I agree that hoping over a ball with a short stick is easy. I honestly do believe the jump cue haters simply equate that to a successful shot and leave it at that. Just because hopping a ball is easy with today's equipment, does not automatically mean they have gained an advantage. ...so yes I'm sneering at the notion that the game is somehow diminished because of the short cue. I think it has added a dynamic that has altered the landscape from several angles of view. There's accustats video evidence of those against jump cues with clearly entertained faces after witnessing a successful shot with a vertical element. So even those who state they want it gone, still manage to be thrilled at the potential outcome on some level.

Regarding the full cue, I'm actually in the other camp and feel that jumping with a full cue "cheapens the game". As it's something I'd see tanked bar rats attempt to stay on a $1 valley. Not too far removed from the "scoop jump" we all love to see on our favourite table. Is it harder than jumping with a short cue...?..., most certainly. It's also a far more stupid maneuver if you care about the table. Which seems to be one of the more common arguments when complaining about the jump shot. Every time I see someone crank up their arm hoping to jump with a full cue I fear the worst. Not sure why the practice should be praised.

Ban the short cue, or don't. I don't care. Ban jumping at all, or don't. Still don't care. Pretend that jump cues have lessened the game and that somehow kicking is the next level in cue sports enlightenment.., then something needs to be said. I'm able to perform either discipline at a decent enough level to give opponents pause. I also can comment without bias as I have no romantic attachment to kicking, or reliance on jumping.

All of that said... Yes I find the people that complain the most about jump cues are those who have a weak CB when performing safeties.
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i got thru about one sentence. i never read post this long. i got my stance. couldnt' care less about yours any longer.
 
sjm said:
This is not my experience.

To be honest, I've never really considered the question from the standpoint of what I like to use when I play. I have always conceded that jump shots require skill, but my problem with them is that they too often amount to forgiveness for position poorly played. Hook yourself and, for decades, you had to pay the price, and the runout was usually dead when you hooked yourself. Position had to be played with greater skill before the short stick brought a little accident forgiveness to poor position play. Hence, while using the short stick requires skill, the existence of the short stick means that poorly played position will have fewer negative consequences in many situations. It cuts both ways.

Hence, your suggestion that the detractors on the subject of the short stick are those that don't play good safeties is pure speculation and it doesn't jive with my observation, which might also be inconclusive. On the other hand, those that make more position errors than the next guy are undeniable beneficiaries of the jump cue, because they need the position error forgiveness it brings more than the next guy.

What the amateurs are allowed to play with doesn't matter to me. I've never had a problem with the use of the aluminum bat in college baseball, but at pro level it's not permitted because it makes things too easy. Permitting the jump cue at amateur level is fine by me, but today's pros should be held to the highest possible standards in position play, and the fact that they are not paying as great a price for poor position play than those that came before them is, at very least, a shame in the eyes of this fan.

In the end, if jump cues help sell the game to the next generation of pool have been players and fans, I'm all for them.
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We have been in near total agreement on this subject since the first time you suggested the jump stick should only be allowed for escaping a safe play and not to bail out poor position. However, just to clarify... While I do personally find the bulk of jump stick nay sayers are those who have had weak safe positional play exposed, and to a lesser extend haven't taken time to learn the skill of jumping. That does not mean I feel detractors must fall into one of those two groups. Opinion is opinion and everyone is entitled to having one.

Really... My main personal point of view is that romance over kicking is somewhat misguided, and the evil skurge that the jump stick apparently represents is short sighted.
 
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David in FL said:
Yawn…

Or just learn to jump rather than complaining about those who can. 😊
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I get ball in hand so many times because my opponent doesn't practice with their jump cue enough.

That being said, during practice with a full length jump cue instead of a dedicated jump cue, sometimes (not too often) I'm able to get the ball to draw and make a stop shot. I'm sure those who practice more, can even play position after pocketing, not just avoid a foul.
 
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The_JV said:
We have been in near total agreement on this subject since the first time you suggested the jump stick should only be allowed for escaping a safe play and not to bail out poor position. However, just to clarify... While I do personally find the bulk of jump stick nay sayers are those who have had weak safe positional play exposed, and to a lesser extend haven't taken time to learn the skill of jumping. That does not mean I feel detractors must fall into one of those two groups. Opinion is opinion and everyone is entitled to having one.

Really... My main personal point of view is that romance over kicking is somewhat misguided, and the evil skurge that the jump stick apparently represents is short sighted.
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Well said, JV, and thanks for engaging in a civil and constructive debate.
 
garczar said:
What are you basing 'more than half the time' on?? One event you watched? Reason i ask this is i watch a lot of pro pool on various streams and from what i see they don't sell-out anywhere near 50% of the time when using a short cue to jump.
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Maybe we can get Mr Statistics to chime in, but when the jump shot is a miss, 50 percent of the time the leave is favorable to the opponent. That's a rough average based on the matches I have watched in the last six months or so.
 
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