Don't just practice pool, practice taking falls!

Interesting. I agree. And also I'm too small a fish to talk about the high levels of the game!

But I think the exposure to pressure, the melt-downs, the heartbreak, can very easily be done wrong.

One *very* successful soccer manager used to go to great lengths to ensure his young players only experienced success (as far as plausible), to build their confidence, expectations, and self-image. He once withdrew from a very major tournament because to compete would have meant exposing several young players to the risk of humiliation if they got out of their depth against a tough opponent.

In contrast, when a player starts to think of himself as someone who chokes under pressure, that can become self-fulfilling. And when other players smell it on them, they're toast.

And some solutions to the mental game bypass the pressure issue entirely.
 
Interesting. I agree. And also I'm too small a fish to talk about the high levels of the game!

But I think the exposure to pressure, the melt-downs, the heartbreak, can very easily be done wrong.

One *very* successful soccer manager used to go to great lengths to ensure his young players only experienced success (as far as plausible), to build their confidence, expectations, and self-image. He once withdrew from a very major tournament because to compete would have meant exposing several young players to the risk of humiliation if they got out of their depth against a tough opponent.

In contrast, when a player starts to think of himself as someone who chokes under pressure, that can become self-fulfilling. And when other players smell it on them, they're toast.

And some solutions to the mental game bypass the pressure issue entirely.
I agree with both points, however the risk is to lose the main purpose of my thread.

It is true that experiencing ONLY defeat can be a negative. Confidence is built through incrementally greater successes, and to have a diet of ONLY loss would be detrimental. And it is also true that with a good mental outlook you can construct a set of beliefs about yourself and your relationship to the game that can reduce the amounts of pressure you feel, and can also help manage it better when it strikes. But while I appreciate the nuances of the situation and appreciate a good debate, my main point stands: MOST COMPETITORS LACK FEAR IN THEIR DIET.

If I were to say "The US has an obesity problem and many people could benefit from being aware of the quality and quantity of their meals", it would be like discussing how some people have eating disorders where they don't eat enough, or how someone you know has some weird allergy to broccoli and that would actually kill that individual. Yes! Diet is complicated, not everyone struggles in the exact same way, and what is good for some people might not be right for everyone. Duly noted! But the general message to the general public remains true.

In the pool world almost everyone I know who has struggled and plateaued in their careers has been due to avoiding this type of pressure. When you talk about building self image as a winner and ensuring you don't dive in too quickly, that just doesn't match Filler, Fedor, Kaci, or any of the many, many, many 16-20 year olds that are competing at the highest level. They didn't get there by playing it safe. And while what works for a full time player doesn't always work for everyone, I have seen this at all levels. Players that make up their mind to get somewhere and look at losses as the stepping stones towards their goals overwhelmingly outperform those who avoid those types of situation.

As for bypassing the pressure, that is always the goal. But it reminds me of the line "There is no difference between theory and practice, in theory, but there is in practice". The fact is that while a good mental game helps, it doesn't make us mentally impervious to break downs. I've seen EVERY top player struggle and fail under pressure. Every one of them.

So building a strong mental game is critical, but doesn't eliminate the need to learn to take losses. Building confidence is critical but doesn't eliminate the need to learn to take losses. Practice is critical but doesn't eliminate the need to learn to take losses. And my point is that the majority of pool players do plenty of confidence building, practice, and theory, and not enough taking losses.

So my question to you and to any who want to debate the nuance of the situation. I understand there is more to pool than taking losses and the game is complicated. But do you think there is a road to achievement that can avoid devastating defeats? If you accept that this is necessary and normal and that most people don't put themselves out there enough then we are on the same page. If you think mental game and confidence building and practice can avoid all of this, well, we couldn't be further apart.
 
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Your title puts me in mind of Jiu Jitsu. Learning to fall the right way in practice and hope I don't have to use the skill in competition.
 
If someone wants to bunt balls around and relax playing-all good. Just don’t expect to become a good player. And that’s ok. Actually that was my dads approach to pool, he rarely played but when he did-he didn’t care about getting better or winning. It was a activity or to play me.

I’m the absolute opposite. Anything I do. I strive to do the absolute best I can period. If it’s cooking a steak or playing pool, I’m all-in. Which is why I don’t play poker, gold or bowl. No time to be mediocre.

Being comfortable is great for sleeping not playing pool. Pushing the envelope makes me feel alive and having done so for so many years so many times. Feels like a accomplishment. Sure I’m horrible compared to SVB, but I can get up and play for $10,000 and feel comfortable. I remember when $500 was pressure. It’s not just $, that just one aspect that’s easy to explain because it’s numbers and less words. Same with playing better players. I fear nobody, not intimidated by anyone. Of course I need the right spot as I don’t play as good. But if the spots right-what’s to be uncomfortable about? The guy giving up the weight has a big problem too. That how I see it. Assuming it’s the right weight.

Not being comfortable isn’t the same as being intimidated. Playing a strong player isn’t ever comfortable but it makes me play my best.

I also play best from behind when the heats on. I’d rather be a good front runner-but I’m not. That’s something I’d like to change.

You get the point I hope

Best
Fatboy<——ready to go!
 
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This is a timely thread. I recently read Pleasure of Small Motions: Mastering the Mental Game of Pocket Billiards. It is a good book. One of the best take-aways is that you have to find more than one definition of success in the game. It can't just be winning, because always winning is impossible, and if it were possible to win every time it would be meaningless. So, you can define success as not quitting against a superior opponent, stringing together what is a high run for you, completing your pre-shot routine every time at the table, etc.

The soccer reference above is interesting. I played a whole season on a badly disadvantaged team when I was a freshman in HS, many years ago. Our school had no senior class because it was our first year in existence and they didn't want to make rising seniors change schools. It was an exercise in controlling what you can. Our moto was, we don't quit, no matter how bad the score looks. We found a different definition of success that ended up taking us to the playoff. I learned a lot about adversity that year. Good practice for life.
 
Been sick the last 3 weeks, still got a cough.
Played league match last night, going in knowing I am not 100%.
Still, doesn't matter when I break and run the table to decelerate on the black to jaw it and I get mad at myself.
You will always beat yourself up, part of the game.
I have found its best to vent than to bottle it up, get it out then move on.
Nothing builds pressure better than bottling it up and letting it build.

What helps, other than experience and getting used to losing when well.. You played a bad shot, is just working onn concentration.
The only time I miss is a lapse in concentration, taking a shot for granted, out of routine, poor technique instead of standing up and resetting etc.
Nobody makes me do this, its on me.
Play the table, not your opponent.
More like, play yourself and try to make your brain do what you know you can do.
Sounds easy right..
 
In the end, doesn’t it all come down to the ‘killer instinct’, and your level of obsession? In a way, I envy those willing to work hard enough to become ’the best’ at anything. But often it seems, the losers outlive the winners.
 
John Ervolino used to refer to the high-pressure situations as "time in the frying pan" for the reason that you'll get fried and burned many times before you grow accustomed to it, and even then, you'll still get scorched from time to time. Failure and the ability to deal with its consequences is part of the learning process in all aspects of life.

Thomas Alva Edison often spoke of how few of his inventions actually worked. The pain that came with failure, however, never demotivated him and he had a halfway decent career as an inventor, LOL.
 
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In the end, doesn’t it all come down to the ‘killer instinct’, and your level of obsession? In a way, I envy those willing to work hard enough to become ’the best’ at anything. But often it seems, the losers outlive the winners.
I think the hard part is no one stays the best for long, or even for a long time. Even the very best at anything have to deal with adversity. The people who are able to stay at a high level for a long time are those who can deal productively with defeat. Understanding what went wrong is important, but excellent athletes also look to what went right. You have to find something to build upon, even when you lose. If you watch vintage interviews of people like Tiger Woods, they give honest assessments of their performance, but often close with something they feel good about and something they could fix to get back to winning. It isn't so much "killer instinct" but "brutal honesty" and a little bit of hope about what could come next.
 
I think the hard part is no one stays the best for long, or even for a long time. Even the very best at anything have to deal with adversity. The people who are able to stay at a high level for a long time are those who can deal productively with defeat. Understanding what went wrong is important, but excellent athletes also look to what went right. You have to find something to build upon, even when you lose. If you watch vintage interviews of people like Tiger Woods, they give honest assessments of their performance, but often close with something they feel good about and something they could fix to get back to winning. It isn't so much "killer instinct" but "brutal honesty" and a little bit of hope about what could come next.
Well said. I've always found myself in the camp that says "killer instinct" is needed as much at the practice table as in competition. Watch the practice sessions of those who are the most successful and you'll see this first-hand.
 
Maybe if I was driving a street race car or dragster at the track or confronting my fear of heights via sky diving?
Yet all of those pose an element of risk and loss of life so maybe in a high stakes poker tournament like WSOP?

It’s not a question of nerves with me. It’s the real consequences of losing. Obladi Oblada….I’ll strive to get better.
That why I prefer to play on the toughest pool tables with tight pockets. I want running a rack to be difficult to do.

Stress, anxiety, fear, worry, etc. are self-imposed and when you let them take root, recovering and conquering them
can seemingly become insurmountable. Remember everyone has good days, bad days and great days. So if you are
going to wager, aim to do it one one of those great days playing pool. There tends to be fewer of them as you get older.
The racing thing is different. Almost to a person if you asked the racers they don't see any risk in what they are doing, it might happen to the other guy but nothing will happen to them. I'm not sure why that happens, I raced for 25 years and that's how I always felt. Its not some form of macho either, I was watching youtube where people in Russia were free climbing these insanely tall towers and doing crazy stuff while hanging over the edge, I noticed after about 10 minutes of watching that my hands were sweating, and it was just a video!!!
 
Well said. I've always found myself in the camp that says "killer instinct" is needed as much at the practice table as in competition. Watch the practice sessions of those who are the most successful and you'll see this first-hand.
That's exactly it. I like hard, expensive games. Variously, I enjoy professional BBQ contests, competitive golf, sailboat racing, and pool. Pool and golf have been the most compelling because it is so hard to stay at an elite level. Dealing with adversity well has a few steps:

1. Disappointment
2. Anger
3. Self-assessment
4. Planning to improve
5. Executing better next time

When I was learning to cook BBQ, I'd sit through the trophy ceremony after a contest livid that I hadn't won, but by the time I got back in my truck to drive home I had a plan to make sure we did better next time.

Get beat, get back in the lab, do your best next time. Winners are those who keep coming back.

As they say, the enemy gets a say.
 
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I'm sure there are exceptions. Maybe every few thousand people there is someone with a brain that is wired a little differently. I think that was the case in the Alex Honnold, the climber featured in Free Solo. This could be you.

Generally when people tell me they don't struggle with pressure what I hear is that they don't get out of their comfort zone.

There is a level of pressure that almost everyone will feel, and even though you know it's just a game in your head, your body reacts with a total fight or flight response. Adrenaline so intense you feel like you're having a minor panic attack. Passage of time is totally distorted, you can start moving way too quickly, overamped and trying to get it over with so you can be safe again, etc.

My message is that for players who want to achieve competitive pool goals that feeling this way isn't a problem. NOT feeling this way is a problem.
I have been playing for about 10 years now. I think it was my 4th year of playing I competed in our state tournament for the second consecutive year and won. I had what seemed massive amounts of adrenaline running thru me and I think it made me play better. Even before that day and a couple of years after I always got the same adrenalin rush playing in tournaments. I don't get the same feeling competing anymore and I think my game suffers for it. Oh yeah, 4 of my matches were on the live stream table too, that may have had something to do with nerves knowing everyone could see me shoot like a donkey. 🤣🤣 I think that was my introduction to pressure.
 
I have been playing for about 10 years now. I think it was my 4th year of playing I competed in our state tournament for the second consecutive year and won. I had what seemed massive amounts of adrenaline running thru me and I think it made me play better. Even before that day and a couple of years after I always got the same adrenalin rush playing in tournaments. I don't get the same feeling competing anymore and I think my game suffers for it. Oh yeah, 4 of my matches were on the live stream table too, that may have had something to do with nerves knowing everyone could see me shoot like a donkey. 🤣🤣 I think that was my introduction to pressure.
Pressure can definitely improve performance. All of my best performances have been under pressure.

The thing is, all of my worst performances have been under pressure too.

You take the good with the bad. My point is that too many people want to get the good without the bad. That didn’t work.

As for you, you’ve succeeded and acclimated to the level you’re discussing. If you moved to a larger arena the pressure would be back in full force.
 
I strive to do the absolute best I can period. Which is why I don’t play poker, gold or bowl. No time to be mediocre.
I wish I could have hobbies but either don't care enough to bother or want to be the best, or at least my best.
I also play best from behind when the heats on. I’d rather be a good front runner-but I’m not. That’s something I’d like to change.
I have trouble when a weaker player gets out ahead. When I get in front and drop a game, I have the confidence to know the game will come back my way before it's over. Against much stronger players, I can be loose because I am "supposed" to lose so there's no pressure.

Pressure can definitely improve performance. All of my best performances have been under pressure.

The thing is, all of my worst performances have been under pressure too.
I struggle with it in pool. I think the fact that you have to make the decision of when to take the shot instead of it happening, like in tennis. Pool is a game where I can't try harder and do better. I do best if I'm emotionally uninvolved and let the skills developed in practice take over. I can't get angry and summon extra strength and grit to power through. I can't stuff the ball down my opponent's throat (metaphorically, of course) if I think he gave me a bad call. I don't know if there's a switch I need to flip to get that extra energy working for me or if I need to learn to be extra clinical. Occasionally, for a few balls, it's like the Spirit of Willie Mosconi is channeling through me. I have to learn to get out of my own way.
 
I wish I could have hobbies but either don't care enough to bother or want to be the best, or at least my best.

I have trouble when a weaker player gets out ahead. When I get in front and drop a game, I have the confidence to know the game will come back my way before it's over. Against much stronger players, I can be loose because I am "supposed" to lose so there's no pressure.


I struggle with it in pool. I think the fact that you have to make the decision of when to take the shot instead of it happening, like in tennis. Pool is a game where I can't try harder and do better. I do best if I'm emotionally uninvolved and let the skills developed in practice take over. I can't get angry and summon extra strength and grit to power through. I can't stuff the ball down my opponent's throat (metaphorically, of course) if I think he gave me a bad call. I don't know if there's a switch I need to flip to get that extra energy working for me or if I need to learn to be extra clinical. Occasionally, for a few balls, it's like the Spirit of Willie Mosconi is channeling through me. I have to learn to get out of my own way.

I don't have any affiliation with the author, but Pleasure of Small Motions has been a huge help for me. Realizing that thinking in words is antithetical to playing in dead stroke has been a huge benefit to my game. Getting out of your own way is a question of silencing the self talk, and just letting your body and mind think and operate in shapes.

I don't know about you, but when I'm in dead stroke, I don't especially remember playing, and I really don't remember hearing or saying anything. I'd noted this before I read the book, but now it makes sense. Playing pool is embodied. We need to let our lizard brains drive, and they can't drive if we are thinking and talking in words.

I realize this sounds pretty woo woo, but it is true. Playing well uses a part of our brains that is much more primitive than language.
 
I don't have any affiliation with the author, but Pleasure of Small Motions has been a huge help for me. Realizing that thinking in words is antithetical to playing in dead stroke has been a huge benefit to my game. Getting out of your own way is a question of silencing the self talk, and just letting your body and mind think and operate in shapes.

I don't know about you, but when I'm in dead stroke, I don't especially remember playing, and I really don't remember hearing or saying anything. I'd noted this before I read the book, but now it makes sense. Playing pool is embodied. We need to let our lizard brains drive, and they can't drive if we are thinking and talking in words.

I realize this sounds pretty woo woo, but it is true. Playing well uses a part of our brains that is much more primitive than language.

I am going to make what for me is a short reply and let this get back to Tin Man's focus. The key to letting your unconscious take over is to plan your entire inning before bending over for the first shot. I think of an inning at the table as one continuous action unless something goes wrong and I have to regroup. If I do have to regroup, I again plan out my entire inning before bending over the table again.

You never let that reptile brain as you call it get going if you think after every shot, interrupting flow. I hate the "three balls ahead" advice, terrible advice in my opinion as it involves adding a ball after every shot!

Hu
 
I agree with both points, however the risk is to lose the main purpose of my thread.

It is true that experiencing ONLY defeat can be a negative. Confidence is built through incrementally greater successes, and to have a diet of ONLY loss would be detrimental. And it is also true that with a good mental outlook you can construct a set of beliefs about yourself and your relationship to the game that can reduce the amounts of pressure you feel, and can also help manage it better when it strikes. But while I appreciate the nuances of the situation and appreciate a good debate, my main point stands: MOST COMPETITORS LACK FEAR IN THEIR DIET.

If I were to say "The US has an obesity problem and many people could benefit from being aware of the quality and quantity of their meals", it would be like discussing how some people have eating disorders where they don't eat enough, or how someone you know has some weird allergy to broccoli and that would actually kill that individual. Yes! Diet is complicated, not everyone struggles in the exact same way, and what is good for some people might not be right for everyone. Duly noted! But the general message to the general public remains true.

In the pool world almost everyone I know who has struggled and plateaued in their careers has been due to avoiding this type of pressure. When you talk about building self image as a winner and ensuring you don't dive in too quickly, that just doesn't match Filler, Fedor, Kaci, or any of the many, many, many 16-20 year olds that are competing at the highest level. They didn't get there by playing it safe. And while what works for a full time player doesn't always work for everyone, I have seen this at all levels. Players that make up their mind to get somewhere and look at losses as the stepping stones towards their goals overwhelmingly outperform those who avoid those types of situation.

As for bypassing the pressure, that is always the goal. But it reminds me of the line "There is no difference between theory and practice, in theory, but there is in practice". The fact is that while a good mental game helps, it doesn't make us mentally impervious to break downs. I've seen EVERY top player struggle and fail under pressure. Every one of them.

So building a strong mental game is critical, but doesn't eliminate the need to learn to take losses. Building confidence is critical but doesn't eliminate the need to learn to take losses. Practice is critical but doesn't eliminate the need to learn to take losses. And my point is that the majority of pool players do plenty of confidence building, practice, and theory, and not enough taking losses.

So my question to you and to any who want to debate the nuance of the situation. I understand there is more to pool than taking losses and the game is complicated. But do you think there is a road to achievement that can avoid devastating defeats? If you accept that this is necessary and normal and that most people don't put themselves out there enough then we are on the same page. If you think mental game and confidence building and practice can avoid all of this, well, we couldn't be further apart.
Yes Fear is so important, Well needed words... Thank you...
 
If someone wants to bunt balls around and relax playing-all good. Just don’t expect to become a good player. And that’s ok. Actually that was my dads approach to pool, he rarely played but when he did-he didn’t care about getting better or winning. It was a activity or to play me.

I’m the absolute opposite. Anything I do. I strive to do the absolute best I can period. If it’s cooking a steak or playing pool, I’m all-in. Which is why I don’t play poker, gold or bowl. No time to be mediocre.

Being comfortable is great for sleeping not playing pool. Pushing the envelope makes me feel alive and having done so for so many years so many times. Feels like a accomplishment. Sure I’m horrible compared to SVB, but I can get up and play for $10,000 and feel comfortable. I remember when $500 was pressure. It’s not just $, that just one aspect that’s easy to explain because it’s numbers and less words. Same with playing better players. I fear nobody, not intimidated by anyone. Of course I need the right spot as I don’t play as good. But if the spots right-what’s to be uncomfortable about? The guy giving up the weight has a big problem too. That how I see it. Assuming it’s the right weight.

Not being comfortable isn’t the same as being intimidated. Playing a strong player isn’t ever comfortable but it makes me play my best.

I also play best from behind when the heats on. I’d rather be a good front runner-but I’m not. That’s something I’d like to change.

You get the point I hope

Best
Fatboy<——ready to go!
Sharp Stick... Guy
 
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