Dopingtests in pool

[drivermaker]

Drivermaker,

For a short while, certain drugs will increase performance because they remove "fear" from the playing factors. I've watched guys race around the table, rack after rack, firing balls in. After one or two sets they just as rapidly run to the bathroom for more courage. Eventually, no amount of "courage" helps and the player mechanically or mentally collapses. How about the player who loses to that person? If your playing heads up, thats your choice. If it occurs in tournament play, why should it be acceptable? Wouldn't you be even the slightest bit angry at that prospect? I'd prefer to have a relatively level playing field.

Ever since bars were invented, some scrawny pencil neck geek twerp had "fear" removed after the right number of drinks, and they decide to pick on one of the biggest dudes in the joint. It doesn't make them fight any better, regardless of their skill level as a boxer. And they'll still get pounded on top of the head like a sledge hammer that will drive them into the ground, so what good does it do. Hey, I grew up as a product of the 70's like Don and Hemi and took every drug known to mankind and took it too excess. My drug of choice back then was bi-phetamine T-20's, otherwise known as black beauties. And if you were gambling all night long with some big stakes at the end of the rainbow and had a choice of taking one or just drinking coffee and being straight, you would have to be a f*#king idiot NOT to take one, and I did more times than I can even count. There's no question that you could shoot great and be really focused all night long. But in today's tournament scene, you could play twice a day with enough space in between to where you could take a nap and be still be sharp. I don't see where the need for drugs is even there. The problem is the next day with drugs...if you don't take more and more and are still pulling all night gambling sessions, you feel like shit and your play starts to deteriorate. There is always a trade off with a drug, although it may give you a sense of false bravado and alertness, motor skills are somewhat diminished, although in your own mind you never think that it's the case. You THINK you're playing better than you actually are. And if you happen to win, then it reinforces the decision to take more.
Although I've played many a night on drugs when I was younger, I now think the way to go is straight and I would have no problems playing someone in the middle of the day for money or in a big tournament knowing that he's wired. At 3 or 4 in the morning, that's a different story.

 

[Pigcarver]

Excuse me for butting in, but caffiene is one that many players use. See that previous thread from last week about "what do you guys drink?"

The second most popular (imho) is nicotine. According to the APA, about half the players smoke, so maybe it should be #1. Make a smoker play without his tobacco and he's ususally MUCH easier to beat.

I'd place alcohol third, and coke/meth next...maybe pot.

Whether anyone of these is helpful or not, depends on the player and circumstances.

I've been beaten on a.m. matches by my opponents' newly-focused play after their frequent visits to the bathroom. It kinda pisses me off, to tell the truth---even though I had been consuming a drug, too, (alcohol) at the time.

Where is the line to be drawn, and more importantly, who will draw it?

Jeff Livingston

And Jeff, the question was..."which drug helps you run more racks"

Unfortunatly, I've played on all of what you listed above, and frankly, I'm pretty sure I played worse, not better.....

The only thing that was listed that might actually help with pool is aderol, but honestly I've never tried it....Wait, I was just going of his description....it's another upper.....


How can anybody play well all cranked on meth/coke/uppers....even caffeine....at what time do the problems with the nervous system, and the paranoia kick in????????

 

[DawgAndy]

What about tournament directors? Did you notice the WSOP was smoke free? I wonder how much that effected their concentration? Drugs are a part of our culture, not to the extent as say Amsterdam but they aren't going to go away. I think it is safe to say the war on drugs has been lost. Watch TV commercials, Cant'concentrate?take a pill, Kids won't behave?givim' a pill,can't get it up?take a pill. Want to run 11 racks? take a .... well if I knew I wouldn't tell anyway.

Andy

 

[hemicudas]

How can anybody play well all cranked on meth/coke/uppers....even caffeine....at what time do the problems with the nervous system, and the paranoia kick in????????

Don, ya buyum books sendum to school and all they want to do is da teacher......... Just pickin atcha, Pigcarver. Obviously you have never been there. THAT'S GOOD FOR YOU. Leave the crap alone. Play more. Practice. That's the way to get there. Best of luck to ya, PC.

 

[Purdman]

Don, ya buyum books sendum to school and all they want to do is da teacher......... Just pickin atcha, Pigcarver. Obviously you have never been there. THAT'S GOOD FOR YOU. Leave the crap alone. Play more. Practice. That's the way to get there. Best of luck to ya, PC.

Tell em Hemi, the real paranoia kicks in on about the third day. You don't actually fall out until day four. That's about as far as I needed to go. Like I said before, we are lucky to be alive. As far as blow goes, the paranoia kicks in in about 10 minutes. I don't regret anything I have done. I don't suggest anybody follow my path either. Most who did are gone. I lived and learned the hard way. I teach a lot of young people to play and whenever drugs come up, I can share my experiences with them. I tell em to stay away, you don't need it. The 60's and 70's were a lot of fun. I don't want to go back but I am glad I was there for a while. Play on the natural man, that's the only way.
Don (Ain't Burned Out Yet) Purdy

 

[sniper]

Nothing personal, Sniper but WRONG.

Nothing personal Hemi, but essentially your saying there is a drug out there I can give my own mother who's never shot a game of pool before and pretty soon I'll be asking her for the 7 and the breaks LOL! I think I had that nightmare once. Seriously, I know there's drugs out there to improve concentration, or slow one's heartbeat but it has alot to do with skills one has already obtained (unless my beginning statement is true ) These drugs can definitely make a player THINK their better no argument there.
By the sounds of it in the long run most of these drugs will be detremental to one's game. Reguardless their a stupid thing to do in the first place.

 

[nineball3323]

I smoke weed every day an play for hours on end an caint seem to get any better maby ill try aderol an see what happens ive already called my doc friend an left a msg to call me about it.


Between pool an GOD theirs ME

 

[lunchmoney]

Don't know but imagine drug testing tournaments in the 70s, lol.

Hemi,

Another Greenway story that goes with this thread. Player A, a Greenway regular, Player B, a road player that player A knows. They decide to play 9-ball for $100 a game on the 8-foot table right by the entry to the bathroom. Player B has already taken his snappers and they are kicking in good. As play begins, Player A takes his. Can you guess what happens? Player B win 12 games in a row and Player A is busted about the same time his snappers started kicking in. All he has now are empty pockets, a head full of speed and no one to play. It was brutal.

Lunchmoney

 

[mjantti]

drugs suck !

Thanks for the replies... I guess people take drugs to get rid of fear, to play long hours without tiredness stepping in and to calm the nerves. I think you have to get used to playing high if you want to benefit from drugs. But, as many people have pointed out, don't choose that road !

Somehow I'm trying to cut down all these even less dangerous substances... I noticed that I can't even play well if I enjoy a good cup of coffee during a tournament. My hands start shaking and I don't feel comfortable over a shot.

 

[Macint0sh]

I'm Norwegian and this case of doping was covered briefly in the national media. He tested postive on cannabis and got an 8 month ban from competition and organized training. Usually he would've been banned much longer, but since cannabis isn't regarded as a performance enchancing drug he got off easier. Kind of the way Rio Ferdinand got off easier for his 'doping violation' than if he would have tested positive (Euros will know who he is...). The reason cannabis is on the doping list is because it hurts the sports reputation.

Wheter there should be doping tests or not is mostly a matter of what your image of pool is. If you think pool is for gambling and hustling, doping tests make no sense. If you think it is a sport, like I do, you would at the very best be hypocritical to oppose doping controls. In Norway, pool is officially recognized as a sport just as football or hockey. I don't know what the situation is like in the US. Every licenced player may be tested at any time. This happens in all the other sports, why shouldn't it happen in pool? For pool to gain the level of respect and interest we all want, pool players have to follow the same rules as every other athlete. It really is that simple.

 

[trophycue]

Have a look at

http://www.globalsnookercentre.co.uk/files/Players/Global_Americas/Canada/pm_profile014.htm

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirk_Stevens

after, please look at the following

http://www.cbsa.ca/nationals/champcan2004_results_an.htm

And last, but not least, check out

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/low/other_sports/snooker/benson_and_hedges_masters_2002/1764513.stm

And may his great soul be blessed, RIP Bill ...

Dave

Kirk Stevens is a dear old freind of mine.........an unbeleivably natural talent.......in his younger days , the best money player i ever saw......what a 9ball player he could have ben~~!!

 

[888]

I'm Norwegian and this case of doping was covered briefly in the national media. He testet postive on cannabis and got an 8 month ban from competition and organized competition. Usually he would've been banned much longer, but since cannabis isn't regarded as a performance enchancing drug he got off easier. Kind of the way Rio Ferdinand got off easier for his 'doping violation' than if he would have tested positive (Euros will know who he is...). The reason cannabis is on the doping list is because it hurts the sports reputation.

Wheter there should be doping tests or not is mostly a matter of what your image of pool is. If you think pool is for gambling and hustling, doping tests make no sense. If you think it is a sport, like I do, you would at the very best be hypocritical to oppose doping controls. In Norway, pool is officially recognized as a sport just as football or hockey. I don't know what the situation is like in the US. Every licenced player may be tested at any time. This happens in all the other sports, why shouldn't it happen in pool? For pool to gain the level of respect and interest we all want, pool players have to follow the same rules as every other athlete. It really is that simple.

i want to consider it a sport too and i agree with everything that you said.

 

[berry]

@888, Don't tell me you are not posting anymore on the other forum.....

 

[chefjeff]

I'm Norwegian <snip>

Every licenced player may be tested at any time. This happens in all the other sports, why shouldn't it happen in pool? For pool to gain the level of respect and interest we all want, pool players have to follow the same rules as every other athlete. It really is that simple.

I wish it were, but it's not that simple. Your argument is an old one, but illogical. Just because everybody does it, or believes it, does not make it so. The old ad hominen, I believe it's called.

There has to be good, reasonable logic in order to act, regardless of whomever else believes whatever else.

Pool can lead the way, not just follow.

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

And Jeff, the question was..."which drug helps you run more racks"

Unfortunatly, I've played on all of what you listed above, and frankly, I'm pretty sure I played worse, not better.....

The only thing that was listed that might actually help with pool is aderol, but honestly I've never tried it....Wait, I was just going of his description....it's another upper.....


How can anybody play well all cranked on meth/coke/uppers....even caffeine....at what time do the problems with the nervous system, and the paranoia kick in????????

I've played on all but meth, I think, and I agree with you. I've never heard of aderol before, either.

I've experimented with varying between alcohol and caffeine, though. This combination seems to be sustainable and helpful for those day-long-sit-around-and-wait tournaments, as long as the quantity is carefully controlled.

Check out this article that popped into my email this morning on the situation....it's a short read and highly informative about the coming substance-enhancement revolution:

TCS
by Henry I. Miller and David Longtin
"This field of 'psychopharmacological enhancement' is
growing in intensity and sophistication. .... Thus, just
as we've seen with steroids and growth hormones used by
athletes to enhance physical performance, mind-altering
drugs will certainly be used for ends that are not
strictly therapeutic. But is that always a bad thing?" (9/13/04)
http://www.free-market.net/rd/773767878.html

The jury is still out.

Jeff Livingston

 

[cardiac kid]

Just because everybody does it, or believes it, does not make it so.

chefjeff,

I disagree. There is another saying that is also appropriate. "Perception is reality". If I think I'm getting cheated, even if I'm wrong, the thought is still there. There must be something for people to hold on to and trust. Major sports regulate players betting and taking "drugs". Their current problem is a difficult one. If you ban one drug, the drug manufacturer will learn the drugs "signature" and create one that can't be traced. Athletes want to win. Some want to win at any cost. Sound familiar?

 

[chefjeff]

chefjeff,

I disagree. There is another saying that is also appropriate. "Perception is reality". If I think I'm getting cheated, even if I'm wrong, the thought is still there. There must be something for people to hold on to and trust. Major sports regulate players betting and taking "drugs". Their current problem is a difficult one. If you ban one drug, the drug manufacturer will learn the drugs "signature" and create one that can't be traced. Athletes want to win. Some want to win at any cost. Sound familiar?

Hi Cardiac, thanks for replying.

I understand what you're saying about trust. As Steven Covey says, trust is the beginning of creating value. It's currently a dilemma that's in a process of changing dramatically (e.g., see the article I linked to in my earlier post, today). And, as you stated, the current efforts aren't really working too well. Trust is sliipping.

My point is that "pool" keeps trying to emulate other sports and keeps failing at it. The drug issue seems to be just another way that pool is following instead of leading.

Pool, having "experts" on drug use/abuse, has the unique opportunity to be a leader in the sports field. We've really got nothing to lose by taking chances that other, more establised, sports won't take. The subject of subtance use could be an interesting and valuable avenue of growth for the sport of cueing.

It's a paradigm shift that's taking place in the drug world; why shouldn't we help lead the way? We pool players could benefit greatly, imho.

Jeff Livingston

Einstein (paraphrased): "Our current problems cannot be solved by the same thinking that created them."

 

[cardiac kid]

Chefjeff,

I wrote and then deleted further thoughts on the "drug" problem in pool. I'm re-writing them now. I mis-understood your point. Thanks for the clarification.

What do you think would happen if the BCA/APA/VNEA/ACS/UPA/Hopkins Productions/Bob and Eydie Romano and any other national or international sanctioning group wishing to participate issued a joint press release to the following:

Beginning January 1, 2006, the top four or eight(???) finishers in each catagory of regional/national competition will undergo a standard set of tests to determine the use of performance enhancing drugs. The enhancements may be for either mental or physical effect. One dollar from each entry will be collected to support this program. Positive results will result in immediate dis-qualification. Would that have any positive effect?

My bullet proof vest is sitting beside me. Should I begin wearing it? What do you think?

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Ok. Lets get one thing straight.

It is ADDERALL. Not aderol. It is a prescription medication that is prescribed for Attention Deficit Disorder.
It is a combination of amphetamine and dexrtoamphetamine.

Amphetamine sulfate, Amphetamine aspartate, Dextroamphetamine Saccharate, and Dextroamphetamine sulfate.
Just like any other amphetamine, and cocaine...it is a powerful stimulant.
It also gives incredible power of focus. One of the side effects of some of these are that they give you supreme confidence.
There can be a nervous panic stricken downside, but that depends on the person.

The whole group of CNS stimulants are as follows.
Adderall as mentioned above.
Desoxyn (methamphetamine hydrochloride) like before
Dexedrine, Dextrostat..(dextroamphetamine sulfate)

Non amphetamine based would be as follows.
Concerta, Metadate, Ritalin (methylphenditate hcl)
Cylert (pemoline)
Focalin (dexmethylphendidate hcl)
Provigil (modafinil)

They are highly controlled substances. Most prescriptions are filled out in triplicate. One for the pharmacy, one for state, and one that's federal.

If you practice a lot, and can't get any better, drugs aren't going to put you over the top.
If you are a high level player and have tons of ability, stimulants CAN make you perform better. It's no longer a question of techique, it's a matter of focus.
They are not going to help out someone who sucks. Someone who misses all the time, isn't going to magically stop missing because he took some upper.
Only thing they might do to a crappy player is make them smash the ball into the rail a lot harder.

SUPERSTAR

 

[drivermaker]

I'm Norwegian and this case of doping was covered briefly in the national media. He tested postive on cannabis and got an 8 month ban from competition and organized training. Usually he would've been banned much longer, but since cannabis isn't regarded as a performance enchancing drug he got off easier. Kind of the way Rio Ferdinand got off easier for his 'doping violation' than if he would have tested positive (Euros will know who he is...). The reason cannabis is on the doping list is because it hurts the sports reputation.

BTW, is there a list printed for Norwegian sports that has the drug names that are considered performance enhancing for pool? I'm very curious, or is it just the same list of drugs that they have on the banned list for other sports and carried over into pool? To me, the reason why the reputation of the sport is hurt by marijuana over there is because they did the drug test to begin with and then published it all over the place for everyone to read. If they didn't do any tests, nobody would have known that he smoked it and the only one that was being hurt by it was the player himself because it IS NOT perfomance enhancing in anything. But noooo, they had to blab it all over the country and make pool look worse. Oooops....I take it back about not being performance enhancing. If they now call those huge eating contests "sport" like that scrawny 135 lb. Japanese guy who can wolf down 52 hot dogs in no time flat and blow away all the fat dudes, I guess it would be performance enhancing. What's next on the banned list, alcohol and a breathalyzer test after a match? Hey, it's punishable in every state here if over their maximum legal limit. Might as well dump it right in there with drugs and test for that also.