Double Elimination except for FINALS MATCH

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
I have been a little torn about the formats of tournaments like the U.S. Open 9 Ball Championship and the U.S. Amateur Championship who allow double elimination all the way up until the final match which is SINGLE ELIMINATION.


I've had some tortuous thoughts about this format and I would appreciate some scrutiny of my thoughts by others here on AZ.

Sometimes, I am a front runner and sometimes I come from behind. When I am a front runner and sitting in the cat bird's seat waiting for the finalist of the loser's bracket, I often find this format disconcerting. It doesn't seem fair that the loser who has already lost one match, is allowed to play me, the finalist on the winner's side and if the loser finalist beats me one set, I am done. I torture myself in that I don't see how that is fair. After all the Loser Finalist lost one match and he only beat me one time. How can they crown him champion?

Well, after much discussion with my friend Keith Shilling of New Orleans, I am not as torn as before.

It seems that the opportunity to play a single CHAMPIONSHIP FINALS MATCH is there for all when the tournament starts. You may come from the one loss side or be king of the hill on the winner's side.

I have studied and listened to many players over the years about coming from the one loss side and playing a single match for the tournament's first place finish and it seems that there is a LARGE ADVANTAGE to come from the one loss side if there is no double elimination in the finals match.

Some of the advantages are: If early on you wind up on the one loss side, you often play against slightly weaker opponents who give you a chance to get in stroke by allowing you more repetitions at the table. As yo udevelop confidence in your game and as you beat opponent after opponent, racing toward the FINAL MATCH, the endorphins push you to greater heights and more confidence. The winner of the winner's side sits in a freezer, silently waiting for an ever better playing opponent fighting his way out of the one loss bracket, getting stronger with every match.

I ALMOST think it is better to lose your first loss of the tournament at about the 1/3 mark, especially if you aren't too tired to finish the tournament with a flourish. This enables you to face opponents that could beat you in any match but who are generally weaker than those at the top of the tournament echelon at the end. You have to play well to beat these players in the middle level but they are more likely to give you more opportunity to do so than the guys in the last several matches of the tournament.

I haven't settled in on letting someone coast on by me just yet and I'm hoping for you guys and girls to explain to me how sitting in the cat bird's seat (winner of the winner's bracket) , getting cold and waiting for a red hot buzz saw coming out of the one loss side, is better than playing throught the one loss side.

I would love to hear everyone's thoughts but especially those who have been in this situation a few times.

It just seems to me that there the winner of the one loss side has a distinct advantage over the winner of the winner's bracket. If the winner of the winner's bracket side is still the best choice, how do you prepare yourself for a red hot buzz saw?

Thanks,
JoeyA

edited apology: sorry if this sounded a little travis trotter :-)
 
Yea ive been in this spot several times....Your better off to go in the losers bracket..I mean you get to play...U get momentum comin all the way back and u got a guy sitting down watchin for 3 hours who has won the winners bracket and now the tournament is single elimination to him...
Beat me twice thats what I say...U got a chance to lose and come back from the losers side didnt u..Well when you beat the first time im in the losers bracket too..Now lets play for the thing...
I lost too many times this way..I cant stand it to be honest....
 
momentum

Momentum is a wonderful thing and the winner of the loser's bracket has it. You have to jump on him or her hard from the first shot to break that momentum. Of course this is tough to do when you have sat and gotten cold and had time for any nerves you might have to work on you. Someone posted months ago that the loser's bracket winner won the final more often than the winner's side finalist. I think this might have been Mike Janis but I may be mistaken.

I have never been a tournament player and have probably won less than a dozen. Of those, I can only remember coming from the loser's side once. One other time I had won the first set of a true double elimination tourney final from the loser's side and was closing out the winning game in the second set when I got some news that made the tournament totally irrelevant and I forfeited with stick in hand three or four balls from victory.

You can win from either side however I agree with those that think the loser's side bracket winner has the edge. The longer the winner's bracket finalist sits and ices the bigger the edge for the loser's side player. This is supposedly offset by the loser's side player having to play more matches. I'm dubious of this claim.

Everything so far in my post indicates to drop over to the loser's side and play from there. There is one catch however. Luck and bad rolls do occasionally play a part in pool. All the way through the semi's the winner's side people get a second chance if they lose. Drop one match on purpose and lose another for whatever reason and you are gone. Going up the winner's side offers the better players some insurance that they don't have if they try to sneak through on the loser's side.

Hu
 
I am one of the board members/tournament directors of the Hunter Classics Women's Tour. We took a vote over 5 years ago - what do the players want - one single race to 9 or true double elimination... and only ONE person wanted single race to 9.

I hope you aren't waiting for hours all the time as the hotseat winner. The hotseat match should be played at the same time as the 4th place match. This means you should be only waiting for one match. I know this can't be done for all tournaments but we strive to do this for the very reason you are talking about.

However, I really like Neil's suggestions of watching the matches like you were playing them.

I have seen many players in the hotseat just play lights out and win easily because they are simply the better player. Other times, the loser's side winner is the one who is obviously not cold and playing better... but the second set allows the hotseat winner to get back in stroke.

All in all, I'd be happy to be in either spot. ;)

Melinda
 
what I do in these times if its available is to practice on another table either by myself or with someone who decided to stay to watch the finals.

My last tournament, I finished 4th. We were 45 players, I won my first 3 matches, lost one and then won 3 one-loss side matches. The guy who put me out of the tourney (one-loss side obviously) ended up winning the tournament.

My friend Danny Hewitt won the 10-ball challenge at Trump Marina in 2003 against Jim Rempe, he had lost his first match and came all the way up to the finals from the one-loss side. that happens all the time.
 
On Paper.....

JoeyA said:
I have been a little torn about the formats of tournaments like the U.S. Open 9 Ball Championship and the U.S. Amateur Championship who allow double elimination all the way up until the final match which is SINGLE ELIMINATION.


I've had some tortuous thoughts about this format and I would appreciate some scrutiny of my thoughts by others here on AZ.

Sometimes, I am a front runner and sometimes I come from behind. When I am a front runner and sitting in the cat bird's seat waiting for the finalist of the loser's bracket, I often find this format disconcerting. It doesn't seem fair that the loser who has already lost one match, is allowed to play me, the finalist on the winner's side and if the loser finalist beats me one set, I am done. I torture myself in that I don't see how that is fair. After all the Loser Finalist lost one match and he only beat me one time. How can they crown him champion?

Well, after much discussion with my friend Keith Shilling of New Orleans, I am not as torn as before.

It seems that the opportunity to play a single CHAMPIONSHIP FINALS MATCH is there for all when the tournament starts. You may come from the one loss side or be king of the hill on the winner's side.

I have studied and listened to many players over the years about coming from the one loss side and playing a single match for the tournament's first place finish and it seems that there is a LARGE ADVANTAGE to come from the one loss side if there is no double elimination in the finals match.

Some of the advantages are: If early on you wind up on the one loss side, you often play against slightly weaker opponents who give you a chance to get in stroke by allowing you more repetitions at the table. As yo udevelop confidence in your game and as you beat opponent after opponent, racing toward the FINAL MATCH, the endorphins push you to greater heights and more confidence. The winner of the winner's side sits in a freezer, silently waiting for an ever better playing opponent fighting his way out of the one loss bracket, getting stronger with every match.

I ALMOST think it is better to lose your first loss of the tournament at about the 1/3 mark, especially if you aren't too tired to finish the tournament with a flourish. This enables you to face opponents that could beat you in any match but who are generally weaker than those at the top of the tournament echelon at the end. You have to play well to beat these players in the middle level but they are more likely to give you more opportunity to do so than the guys in the last several matches of the tournament.

I haven't settled in on letting someone coast on by me just yet and I'm hoping for you guys and girls to explain to me how sitting in the cat bird's seat (winner of the winner's bracket) , getting cold and waiting for a red hot buzz saw coming out of the one loss side, is better than playing throught the one loss side.

I would love to hear everyone's thoughts but especially those who have been in this situation a few times.

It just seems to me that there the winner of the one loss side has a distinct advantage over the winner of the winner's bracket. If the winner of the winner's bracket side is still the best choice, how do you prepare yourself for a red hot buzz saw?

Thanks,
JoeyA

edited apology: sorry if this sounded a little travis trotter :-)

I definetely can see your point of view. I have been running the monthly tournament in Waco,TX for 17 events now. We have race to 7 winners side and race to 5 on the one loss side and one race to 9 finals. Out of the 17 events 9 have won from the winners side and 8 from the one loss side.Out of those 8 only 2 lost early. The rest came from playing in the hot seat match, lost, won one race to 5 and then the tournament.

I don't know if it's right or not but we sure seem to always have a crowd for the finals. I have always ran the Waco event by what the players and the club want. Sometimes it's a balancing act that leans one way or the other. Overall It seems to work out. Never closed to changes though!

Ray
 
Based on a lot of the responses, it would appear that most people think that the person coming through the losers bracket has the advantage in a single elimination final.

I agree with this sentiment for the same reasons stated by previous posters.

However, I guess my question is: Why would you want to set up a tournament where the person with 0 losses is at a disadvantage to someone that already has lost once, for the final single match???

I prefer for nobody to have an advantage and make it a true double elimination like the rest of the tournament.
 
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I don't know who has the advantage. Can't be proven. I DO know that if I'm in the hot seat I want TWO chances just like my opponent had. No more discussion. It's the right thing.
 
Bigtruck said:
I definetely can see your point of view. I have been running the monthly tournament in Waco,TX for 17 events now. We have race to 7 winners side and race to 5 on the one loss side and one race to 9 finals. Out of the 17 events 9 have won from the winners side and 8 from the one loss side.Out of those 8 only 2 lost early. The rest came from playing in the hot seat match, lost, won one race to 5 and then the tournament.

I don't know if it's right or not but we sure seem to always have a crowd for the finals. I have always ran the Waco event by what the players and the club want. Sometimes it's a balancing act that leans one way or the other. Overall It seems to work out. Never closed to changes though!

Ray

I would think that to make things more fair, the winner of the winner's bracket should be allowed up to 30 minutes to practice by himself to get warmed up for the FINALS MATCH. I imagine that is left up to the tournament director. Don't pizz those TD or REFS off.

The winner of the one loss side is nice and toasty warm already.

The longer race for the FINALS MATCH is appropriate but it is not enough to overcome the advantages of the person coming in smoking hot from the one loss side.

I wonder if Barry Berman has statistics about what percentage of the U.S. Open 9 Ball Championships have been won in the Single Eliminatiion Finals Match from the one loss side? The other tours like Mike Janis's go DE correct? What about the other big tours? Florida Tour, NE Tour etc?

JoeyA
 
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