Dr. Dave’s VNEA Vegas Experience
- Thread starter dr_dave
- Start date
Valley tables?
Did they have the huge pockets?
Did they have the huge pockets?
Yep. Most of them brand new with blue cloth.
Always. Those parallel pocket facings suck the balls down like a vacuum cleaner.
I still missed an embarrassing number of shots.
Before Felt switched over to Diamonds I played in a tournament on the Valley tables.Yep. Most of them brand new with blue cloth.
Always. Those parallel pocket facings suck the balls down like a vacuum cleaner.
I still missed an embarrassing number of shots.
I won my first match 7 to 1 and a rail bird said that I never missed one shot which I didn't realize until he told me.
The pockets were huge,hit the rail 6 " from the pocket and the ball still goes in.
Serious question. So why do so many obsess over pocket size? Everybody still misses. Watching some bar table events on YouTube really strong players still miss. (Edit to clarify Valley tables with stock pockets)They miss less than they would on a tougher table. Best players still seem to be there at the end. I am not saying two great one pocket players want to play on pockets like that or that those conditions are ideal for pros. For most players will big pockets hurt development or make a big difference in matches? Is there anything really far wrong with say a standard Gold Crown pocket?Yep. Most of them brand new with blue cloth.
Always. Those parallel pocket facings suck the balls down like a vacuum cleaner.
I still missed an embarrassing number of shots.
Pocket size changes how the game is played.
There are things you can do with big pockets that require a different way with tight pockets.
My answer would be because it can make a huge difference. A player going from playing on Valley's to playing in a tournament filled with Pro-cut Diamonds can easily be punished, especially if he tries to pocket balls with pace. I have played opponents on Diamonds who I can tell played mainly on Valleys because they jawed a ball or think they got robbed when hitting the cushion 10" away from the pocket and the ball did not fall.
I had an 8' home table with legit 6" pockets when I first started.
After a couple years I began taking lessons from Bert. I was an APA 4 or so then.
I told him I was going to have the table rebuilt to 4.5" pockets and he told me to leave it alone.
He said that big pockets are better for beginners because we will make more balls.
High pocketing success = happier times while practicing = happy to put more time in on the table.
Smaller pockets bring a less enjoyable experience to beginners and they are more likely to spend less time on the table practicing.
Obviously, this ideology does not work as well with advanced players who need to practice on equipment more like that on which they compete.
Years later I bought my first 9' table -GCII with 3 15/16" pockets. Very tough table but it made me play very strong on the standard pocket GCs at the halls in my area.
I sold that table when I moved, and have had standard-pocket 9 footers ever since (currently Diamond Pro Am).
Yes, good point. But is it so terrible in the scheme of things? At Felt in your tournament on the Valleys did it change the outcome? You missed less but would you have lost to that player on a tough table? I guess I am being a bit of a contrarian but I have been wondering if the pocket size obsession is a bit overblown. Like all the snooker guys who think a snooker player could automatically run 74 racks on a valley. I am not knocking snooker as a game or all people who like it, but every bar box match on YouTube has some comment that it is stupid since the pockets aren’t tiny and they should play snooker. You know the type of comment
Yup that's Valley syndrome.
Billy Bar Banger gets a rude awakening moving to a Diamond.
... but you still need to choose good patterns, play good shape, not hook yourself, and not miss (regardless of the pocket size).
This is something I’ve never understood about FargoRate.
I’m not trying to knock it but how can the ratings be the same for guys playing on different equipment? I see this at the DCC every year — guys flumexed by the tight Diamond tables. You can just tell they’re use to loose GCs or maybe their easy home room tables. And they miss — a lot — because they’re not used to the tougher equipment. They might be stars on the soft stuff but really have no chance on the tighter tables.
Lou Figueroa
Sure. I guess what I am getting at is this. Diamond table became the standard basically. Sounded like the Diamonds at DCC this year were especially tough. I wasn’t there to have personal knowledge. But should a tight Diamond be the standard? I am not sure actually. Maybe. But what was so terrible about a stock Gold Crown? OK they shimmed the action table in the room. But was it a problem because everyone ran 200 balls and had easy 8 and outs in one pocket? No. So what should pool play like? Faster cloth now is a difference too. I don’t think a valley table with big pockets is ideal. But is a Diamond with 4.25” pockets ideal? I guess I am also more comfortable with the idea of non-uniform playing conditions. Not that we want bad conditions but at what point should people just adjust and play instead of insisting on a narrow range of what is acceptable?
Why are the people who talk most about huge buckets, hitting the rail first (still making the ball), and the associated, not putting up large packs every time they get to the table.
Honestly playing on a valley or American shuffle board really isn’t fun to me anymore. I don’t want to play on 4 inch pockets like the pro’s but I also don’t want valley pockets where little accuracy is needed.
I’m not arguing that Diamonds should be the standard — I’m just saying that if one guy is rated, say 650, based upon his play at a room with old GCs with 5” pockets, how can he be at the same level as a 650 guy that’s playing on 4.5” Diamonds every day?
Lou Figueroa
Make under 4" a requirement of sanctioning. Call me when it goes through...
tomatoshooter
Well-known member
I usually visualize a ball in the mouth of the pocket, when I can't see the facings, it's a bit disorienting because I'm working with a different sight picture. Especially coming from my Olhausen at home with a wide angle where both facings are visible much of the time.
Hard Times just put gray 860 on the Diamonds in the tournament room. 4 1/4" pockets and I've never had so many poorly hit shots fall.
I'm not running so many racks I'm getting bored. When I run out as much as the pros do, I'll worry about finding tighter pockets. I do feel that someone who plays mostly on loose pockets can get frustrated and rattled on a tight table, the psychological factor may be larger than the actual difficulty of the table.
Because they play even with other 650s. A 650 playing on 4.5" Diamonds may shoot about .750 TPA and when he gets on 5" GCs he may shoot .825. But the Fargo measures performance relative to other players. I think a player at the 650 level will be able to adapt to different equipment well enough that the match up shouldn't be one sided.
Not a believer.
Guy with the same FR as me from the GC 5” pockets room walks into my room with 4.5” Diamonds — I’m happy to play all day.
Lou Figueroa
but that’s just me : -)