draw changes cut angle, normal?

michael4

michael4

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
lately, when ever I put a lot of draw on the CB, it noticeably affects my cut shots, making the OB cut "sharper" (or more angle) than it otherwise would. The difference is enough to make me miss an OB 2 feet from the pocket (if I didnt correct for it)

I find myself compensating for this and cutting the OB shallower, knowing this effect will help cut the ball into the pocket.

(I hope I have explained this well, and YES IT HAPPENS IF CUTTING LEFT OR RIGHT WITH DRAW)

Is this possibly normal? If not what is going on?

I should mention that my pool balls havent ever been properly cleaned, in case that could be it?
 
michael4 said:
lately, when ever I put a lot of draw on the CB, it noticeably affects my cut shots, making the OB cut "sharper" (or more angle) than it otherwise would. The difference is enough to make me miss an OB 2 feet from the pocket (if I didnt correct for it)

I find myself compensating for this and cutting the OB shallower, knowing this effect will help cut the ball into the pocket.

(I hope I have explained this well, and YES IT HAPPENS IF CUTTING LEFT OR RIGHT WITH DRAW)

Is this possibly normal? If not what is going on?

I should mention that my pool balls havent ever been properly cleaned, in case that could be it?
Click to expand...

Cleaning the balls will probably reduce the effect. Draw and follow cause the shot to throw less than a shot without any top/back spin. Usually the effect is not quite as large as you see unless your shots are not centered on the pocket to start with.
 
Adding draw to your shots will minimize throw and make the object ball cut SLIGHTLY more than with center ball, but it's very slight and would not account for missing the pocket by 2 feet.

Maybe you could put up a video of yourself shooting some draw shots and the instructors on here can help you with that.
 
victorl said:
Adding draw to your shots will minimize throw and make the object ball cut SLIGHTLY more than with center ball, but it's very slight and would not account for missing the pocket by 2 feet.

Maybe you could put up a video of yourself shooting some draw shots and the instructors on here can help you with that.
Click to expand...

I think the OP meant a ball 2 feet from the pocket not mis the pocket by 2 feet.

I can't really comment on this from any personal experience as I have almost never shot with center ball.
 
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As Bob mentioned, collision induced throw is lessened with follow/draw, but that shouldn't cause you to miss on the majority of your draw shots, especially when only 2 feet from the pocket. Even then it would only come into play on thinner cut shots, not when hitting the ball fuller. And most people don't allow for throw all that well when shooting center ball, so are more apt to miss when shooting slowly or with center at certain cut angles as opposed to the other way around, as in your case.

You don't mention if it happens at all distances, speeds, etc. My guess is some flaw in your stroke, perhaps you are inadvertently putting english on the ball when using draw, causing some deflection to happen that isn't intended or compensated for. Hard to tell without seeing...
Scott
 
scottjen26 said:
As Bob mentioned, collision induced throw is lessened with follow/draw, but that shouldn't cause you to miss on the majority of your draw shots, especially when only 2 feet from the pocket. Even then it would only come into play on thinner cut shots, not when hitting the ball fuller. And most people don't allow for throw all that well when shooting center ball, so are more apt to miss when shooting slowly or with center at certain cut angles as opposed to the other way around, as in your case.

You don't mention if it happens at all distances, speeds, etc. My guess is some flaw in your stroke, perhaps you are inadvertently putting english on the ball when using draw, causing some deflection to happen that isn't intended or compensated for. Hard to tell without seeing...
Scott
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Scott,

The OP said that it is adding cut to the shot on both right & left cuts.

Would that be consistent with a stroke issue or perhaps more to due with maybe an alignment/aim issue if the cue is angled down with the tip low on the ball?

I don't know but the adding cut to the shot for both right & left has me wondering.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
thanks to everyone.

maybe I over stated the problem a little, but if the OB is 2 feet from the pocket, I would certainly make an adjustment. not really a factor on thin cut, as I would rarely use a lot of draw there.

I realized its my stroke, because it is happening on straight in shots too (with heavy draw), my straight in shots more often rattle out of the pocket.

That is conclusive proof in my mind.

Thanks again. (gotta find out where my stroke is getting out of alignment.)
 
Thanks for the clarificaton.

Sounds like you may be over stroking for the draw shots. You really do no need that much force to draw the ball.

That being said, I stared to have some problems on longer draw shots when shooting from out of the jaws of a corner pocket on non Diamond tables. The problem was not with draw but with missing the cut angle. I rather quickly deduced that when I raised the butt end up for those shots, I was jamming up my stroke with my normal snooker type stance. So I simply adjusted my body a bit clockwise for those shots & then all was well.

I am certainly not sure if that is your problem but it could be. If you could post a video I'm sure that one of the certified instructors could pick up on something.

Good Luck with finding the cause & the solution.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
When a pro talks about having a "feel for the pocket," they mean......

michael4 said:
lately, when ever I put a lot of draw on the CB, it noticeably affects my cut shots, making the OB cut "sharper" (or more angle) than it otherwise would. The difference is enough to make me miss an OB 2 feet from the pocket (if I didnt correct for it)

I find myself compensating for this and cutting the OB shallower, knowing this effect will help cut the ball into the pocket.

(I hope I have explained this well, and YES IT HAPPENS IF CUTTING LEFT OR RIGHT WITH DRAW)

Is this possibly normal? If not what is going on?

I should mention that my pool balls havent ever been properly cleaned, in case that could be it?
Click to expand...

This depends on how much "draw," and the shot speed. I suggest always aiming at the part of the pocket closest to the object ball and forcing it into the center. This will give you a better idea how your draw is effecting the shot by what part of the pocket it's actually hitting.

When a pro talks about having a "feel for the pocket," they mean the whole pocket, always calibrating relative to the center (of the pocket). 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
michael4 said:
thanks to everyone.

maybe I over stated the problem a little, but if the OB is 2 feet from the pocket, I would certainly make an adjustment. not really a factor on thin cut, as I would rarely use a lot of draw there.

I realized its my stroke, because it is happening on straight in shots too (with heavy draw), my straight in shots more often rattle out of the pocket.

That is conclusive proof in my mind.

Thanks again. (gotta find out where my stroke is getting out of alignment.)
Click to expand...

If this is throwing off your straight in shots then you are definitely doing something different in your stroke when you are trying to draw the ball.

Here is a test, get a friend to watch. Put the object ball 2 feel away from the rail, Try to shoot the object ball directing into a diamond on the rail (not the pocket). Try this 10 times and have the friend keep track of how many times the object ball hits right of the diamond and how many times it hits left of the diamond. I'm willing to bet that you are consistantly hitting to one side.

Another test, line up straight in shots. Try to draw the cue ball. When you follow through freeze and double check that your cue is pointing at the center of the pocket. Most likely if your stroke is off then you are pointing towards one side of the pocket.


Without video or seeing you in person it is hard to tell what is actually going on.
 
michael4 said:
lately, when ever I put a lot of draw on the CB, it noticeably affects my cut shots, making the OB cut "sharper" (or more angle) than it otherwise would. The difference is enough to make me miss an OB 2 feet from the pocket (if I didnt correct for it)

I find myself compensating for this and cutting the OB shallower, knowing this effect will help cut the ball into the pocket.

(I hope I have explained this well, and YES IT HAPPENS IF CUTTING LEFT OR RIGHT WITH DRAW)

Is this possibly normal? If not what is going on?

I should mention that my pool balls havent ever been properly cleaned, in case that could be it?
Click to expand...

There's a good chance you are putting a little inside english on the cb when you draw. That would cause the cb to squirt to the outside of the shot, thereby cutting the ob too thin.
 
michael4 said:
lately, when ever I put a lot of draw on the CB, it noticeably affects my cut shots, making the OB cut "sharper" (or more angle) than it otherwise would. The difference is enough to make me miss an OB 2 feet from the pocket (if I didnt correct for it)

I find myself compensating for this and cutting the OB shallower, knowing this effect will help cut the ball into the pocket.

(I hope I have explained this well, and YES IT HAPPENS IF CUTTING LEFT OR RIGHT WITH DRAW)

Is this possibly normal? If not what is going on?

I should mention that my pool balls havent ever been properly cleaned, in case that could be it?
Click to expand...

Michael,

Are you sure that it is happening the same way for both right & left cuts?

Is the ball over cuttung for both right AND left cuts?

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
Maybe you should check your stance and how you're coming down on the ball? Extreme draw and follow can do some funny things, especially if your cue's not completely or close to level as possible, but when I'm finding repetitive errors, I start with my stance/alignment and that everything''s line up under my cue before worrying about grip, elbow position, eye dominance, etc. The only way I've been able to get more consistent over time is ensuring my pre-shot routine gets better and better.
 
Michael,

How do you go from a normal shot to shooting a shot with draw? I'm wondering if something you are doing is messing with your aim since draw is making you over cut when cutting in BOTH directions.

Are you raising the butt to lower the tip? What exactly is your adjustment for a draw shot? How do you normally sight/aim a shot & are you doing anything different for a draw shot? I'm thinking more in the line of your head position relative to the cue stick.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
ENGLISH! said:
Michael,

How do you go from a normal shot to shooting a shot with draw? I'm wondering if something you are doing is messing with your aim since draw is making you over cut when cutting in BOTH directions.

Are you raising the butt to lower the tip? What exactly is your adjustment for a draw shot? How do you normally sight/aim a shot & are you doing anything different for a draw shot? I'm thinking more in the line of your head position relative to the cue stick.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
Click to expand...

It certainly seems like its cutting too thin in both directions. LIke someone said, its possible I'm accidently applying inside english in both directions.

I'm going to gradually lower my tip to see where things get out of hand, and gradually increase power too ( but as separate tests) I'm not sure if its the lowered tip, or the increased power I'm trying to apply thats making the problem with the stroke. I have a small feeling its more related to "power"....I'm also going to leave the tip on the table after the shot, to see if its out of line after the follow thru.

thanks to everyone who has given advice. !
 
michael4 said:
It certainly seems like its cutting too thin in both directions. LIke someone said, its possible I'm accidently applying inside english in both directions.

I'm going to gradually lower my tip to see where things get out of hand, and gradually increase power too ( but as separate tests) I'm not sure if its the lowered tip, or the increased power I'm trying to apply thats making the problem with the stroke. I have a small feeling its more related to "power"....I'm also going to leave the tip on the table after the shot, to see if its out of line after the follow thru.

thanks to everyone who has given advice. !
Click to expand...

Michael,

Some have suggested a stroke problem. What is confusing to me is that you are over cutting in both directions. That makes me think that it may not necessarily be a stroke issue but might be an aim thing when the cue is more angled down for the draw shot. That is why I was asking some questions. You might want to try setting up a certain cut shot & hit it with high, center & low but NOT necessarily draw. By that I mean all at the same speed. See if you notice anything different. Then hit them with high, center, & low but all hard with speed. See what you get.

As I said, if you can post a video, one of the instructors might be able to spot something.

Good luck with it.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
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What no one has mentioned yet is something mentioned in Don Feeney's video series... When a shot is hit with a firm draw stroke the cue ball tends to lift off the table thus over cutting from both sides as the cue ball and object ball centers do not make contact.
 
GARY LLOYD said:
What no one has mentioned yet is something mentioned in Don Feeney's video series... When a shot is hit with a firm draw stroke the cue ball tends to lift off the table thus over cutting from both sides as the cue ball and object ball centers do not make contact.
Click to expand...

Gary,

While I agree with what you are saying, it is not always the case. On certain shots a good draw shot can be made with the cue ball sliding on the cloth if struck with a nearly level cue. I can telll when I've hit a good slider vs. a bouncer. But you could be correct about the OP's issue, if he is bouncing the CB.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
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GARY LLOYD said:
What no one has mentioned yet is something mentioned in Don Feeney's video series... When a shot is hit with a firm draw stroke the cue ball tends to lift off the table thus over cutting from both sides as the cue ball and object ball centers do not make contact.
Click to expand...
The cue ball leaves the cloth on nearly every shot, both follow and draw. This is a result of the fact that the cue stick is elevated on nearly every shot.
 
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