Draw cut vs. Top cut

Patrick Johnson said:
If you hit the CB the same distance from center, the revolutions per inch of CB travel are the same right off the tip. But with follow the ratio stays the same while with draw the revolutions per inch immediately start to go down (for instance, drag draw turns into follow before reaching the OB).



Yes, but it does that by hitting downward on the CB, which reduces its forward speed. With a normal, near-level cue, spin/speed ratios are the same immediately after tip/ball contact (but change differently after that).

pj
chgo
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That's sort of what I mean. With draw, the energy is released partially in the friction/change of direction. With top, the energy is released partially in speed, or a 0-degree running english, which helps to pull the CB forward. The energy may be the same, the hits may be equal, but I'd think that with top, the revolutions are spread out a little further with the forward pulling motion. FWIW, I tend to use a slight downward motion for draw.. to me, it's kind of cheating for draw vs. using a bad stroke. :o
 
Bob Jewett said:
When working through the various theoretical and practical problems involving spin on pool balls, you nearly always want to consider the spin about the center of the ball. When you hit with follow, draw, left or right and you hit the same distance off center, the cue ball will leave the tip with the same speed (of the center of the ball) and the same amount of spin (about the center of the ball. If you hit with follow at 70% of the height of the ball (follow only), the ball will start out rolling smoothly on the cloth. (I call this "unit" spin or spin/speed ratio.) If you hit the equivalent distance below center (at 30% of the height of the ball), the cue ball will leave the tip with the top of the ball not moving relative to the table. (I also call this unit spin.)

If you can hit half way from the center to the edge of the cue ball with just left spin (which would be the same eccentricity as the 75% point for follow or the 25% point for draw) the right side of the cue ball will actually be moving back towards you as the ball leaves the tip. This is the technique that makes cut shots of more than 90 degrees possible (along with sticky balls).
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Does the part in blue hold true for very long when considering friction(for draw) or when using the table to help create draw as I mentioned in my last post?

Quick story.. played at Bar A for a few years. Switched to Bar B the last few years. Bar B's owner brushes his tables and cleans the balls. Played somebody at Bar A after not playing there for a while.. wholy throw, batman, those dirty balls and slow felt made my eyes go :shocked: !!

And thank you both for helping me out a little bit with this thread, and thanks to the other for keeping it going.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Here is an article that talks about reduction of throw with draw and follow and describes a simple experiment you can to to see the effect for yourself: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2006-05.pdf
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Several articles (including Bob's) dealing with this topic are linked on my throw draw/follow effects resource page. The articles contain good examples, illustrations, experimental data, and additional information.

Also, a complete summary of all throw effects, with supporting resources (including video demonstrations), can be found here:

Regards,
Dave
 
JoeyA said:
Most cut. Outside English, probably.
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... it depends on the cut angle and amount of outside English; although, your statement is often true. For more info, see my February '07 BD article dealing with this topic.

JoeyA said:
Most accurate cut, NO English.
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... unless one is not good at judging CIT, or if the ball conditions are very clingy. In those cases, using gearing outside English can be more accurate (assuming the shooter has a good understanding and/or feeling for squirt and swerve effects, and can judge "gearing" English fairly well). For thin cuts, "no English" is probably the best choice in general, unless the cut angle is so large that the ball cannot be pocketed without extreme outside English (e.g., see impossible cut shots).

JoeyA said:
If you don't need English to cut a ball to make it or to get shape, don't use it.
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... unless conditions are very clingy and/or if you are not good at judging CIT (per above).

Regards,
Dave
 
Draw should bring your ob more towards you off the pocket to ob. Line. Follow should throw it away.
 
PJ / Jal: I get it now. I was incorrectly thinking of spin (or roll, turnover, revolutions) in terms of distance, not time. Obviously a cue ball hit hard with follow is turning faster than one hit softly, even if both shots have the same number of revolutions over the distance to the object ball.

Thanks.
 
dr_dave said:
... it depends on the cut angle and amount of outside English; although, your statement is often true. For more info, see my February '07 BD article dealing with this topic.

... unless one is not good at judging CIT, or if the ball conditions are very clingy. In those cases, using gearing outside English can be more accurate (assuming the shooter has a good understanding and/or feeling for squirt and swerve effects, and can judge "gearing" English fairly well). For thin cuts, "no English" is probably the best choice in general, unless the cut angle is so large that the ball cannot be pocketed without extreme outside English (e.g., see impossible cut shots).

... unless conditions are very clingy and/or if you are not good at judging CIT (per above).

Regards,
Dave
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I'll stick with Buddy Hall's recomendation and use no English on thin cut shots unless absolutely necessary.
 
JoeyA said:
I don't shoot impossible thin cuts.
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I don't either (in game situations), but they are fun proposition shots ... and they ain't possible without English.

Regardless, I think we are in agreement concerning not using English with thin cuts.

Regards,
Dave
 
Agree with Joey here for sure. I used to be a "spin thin cuts in" sort of guy, since learning CTE/Pro1 and getting more familiar with center ball, I now will prefer (position notwithstanding) to just cut them in on the center axis.

While either draw or follow will work to help minimize cling, I prefer a good rolling ball (follow) when possible since draw can always wear off and turn into a stun shot at or near the moment of impact and cause you to undercut the ball.

Another method is to use draw and outside, if hit properly you can get the ball to travel down table and curve away from the cut near or right at the impact point which will throw the object ball a bit more. A touchy shot, but not that bad really when playing with familiar equipment. I will still use this method when position doesn't allow me to just cut the ball thinly and go up and down the table, or when the cut approaches 90 degrees, although I will typically play safe instead.

Scott
 
scottjen26 said:
Agree with Joey here for sure. I used to be a "spin thin cuts in" sort of guy, since learning CTE/Pro1 and getting more familiar with center ball, I now will prefer (position notwithstanding) to just cut them in on the center axis.

While either draw or follow will work to help minimize cling, I prefer a good rolling ball (follow) when possible since draw can always wear off and turn into a stun shot at or near the moment of impact and cause you to undercut the ball.

Another method is to use draw and outside, if hit properly you can get the ball to travel down table and curve away from the cut near or right at the impact point which will throw the object ball a bit more. A touchy shot, but not that bad really when playing with familiar equipment. I will still use this method when position doesn't allow me to just cut the ball thinly and go up and down the table, or when the cut approaches 90 degrees, although I will typically play safe instead.

Scott
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Yes Scott. While CTE/Pro1 and Stan Shuffett opened my eyes to the precision and the value of center ball, they also opened my eyes to the minimal precision use of English, draw and follow.

Also, with the draw and outside, on long distances, the cue ball slows up its speed and the outside English becomes a more prominent player in cutting/throwing the object ball. In addition, because of the slower cue ball speed, the English on the cue ball takes better to the rail, enabling you to another path for the cueball. The downside is that the cueball can curve away from the object ball before it makes contact. Just something you have to practice.

This shot looks great when executed well.
 
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