Drill to stop elbow drop

ENGLISH! said:
Adagio - A tempo having slow movement; restful at ease.

Allegro - A direction to play lively and fast.

Energico - A symbol in sheet music a direction to play energetically.

Espressivo - A direction to play expressively.

Forte - A symbol indicating to play loud.

Grandioso - Word to indicate that the movement or entire composition is to be played grandly.

Legato - Word to indicate that the movement or entire composition is to be played smoothly.

Piano - An instruction in sheet music to play softly. Abbreviated by a “p”.

Presto - A direction in sheet music indicating the tempo is to be very fast.

Staccato - Short detached notes, as opposed to legato.

Vivace - Direction to performer to play a composition in a brisk, lively, and spirited manner.

All off the above are different directives in music as to how the composer wants the notes to played. They can be the exact same notes through out the composition but played differently.

The point being that the cue ball does not have to be struck in one manner ALL of the time. It can be struck in a variety of different manners depending on the 'song' (outcome) that the composer (cueist) wishes to portray.

In music, many can play the notes, but everyone can not make their instrument sing. I think the same can be said about a cue stick & just how it is used.

Some are robotic & can only play the notes. While others are artists & make their cue sing.
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Steve Davis was considered a robot in his prime. Jimmy White and Alex Higgins were very much the artists.

Steve has won more titles than both put together and is on a par with O'Sullivan, Hendry and Davis as one of the all time greats.

Its all well and good using pointless metaphors to try and relate two completely different things but it makes no sense.

Rather than play like an "artist" I would rather play like a "robot". Robots get the job done with optimum efficiency with repeatbale results whilst artists are busy cutting off their ears.

Artists belong in the trickshot world whilst robots belong in the major tournaments.
 
Petros Andrikop said:
Ok, here are the relative quotes from the 3C book of Raymond Ceulemans "mister 100".
In that book he has photos of 3 different lengths of follow through and a diagram of 4 different angles of "attacking" the CB. He refers to 5 different types of strokes, "follow through", "short", "rapid", "slow" and "dead ball (short)".
Among other advice it is written:

" The stroke is difficult subject to deal with because most players develop a faulty stroke from their earliest beginnings. The commonest and best know technique in 3-cushion play is the follow through stroke. By this I mean the long drive or follow action needed to give the cue ball an opportunity of hitting more cushions without forcing.
With a long stroke the tip end of the cue remains longer in contact with the cue ball. As a result the cue ball is given maximum rotation together with the necessary impetus.
You therefore drive the cue into the cueball.
This technique must normally be applied energetically - i.e. not long and slow or limp - and with this we find some important variations. For example we get a long drive which may be quick or slow. How can this be achieved?

These gradations in the stroke are obtained when setting it up. You move the cue backwards and forwards a few times before hitting the ball. By practice strokes of this kind you allow the cue a certain run-up before striking the cue ball.
There are players who will suddenly interrupt this movement before striking the cue ball or carry out the whole movement. This is a characteristic of a faulty stroke.

In order to achieve a long but slow stroke your rhythm on starting up must be more delayed or slower.
With a rapid or with a short stroke your starting-up rhythm will have to be either faster or shorter.
You therefore adapt your cadence to the nature of the stroke.
The difference between a fast and short stroke is that a short stroke is carried out more abruptly.
With a fast stroke the tip follows the cue ball through.
Short and fast can be combined."

Here I would like to emphasize once again that in this case we are not talking about a champion who has just "some idea" about the details of stroke techniques and their relation to CB behaviour but a champion who knows exactly what he is doing, regardless of the scientific explanation behind it which is a matter of discussion.
The pause as a characteristic of a faulty stroke is mentioned because in 3C exact speed is very important among other exact characteristics of the stroke, including length of follow through..

It is very interesting that the great Robert Byrne in his books has a different approach, since we know that most of his material related to 3C in his work is based among other things to his detailed discussions with Raymond Ceulemans himself.

I believe this is great "food for thought" and discussion..
Thanks everyone for you time.
Petros
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Petros,

Was Mr. Ceulemans a trick shot artist?
 
Pidge,

If I could give you green with this phone I would.

Consistency wins titles in this game.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
 
Pidge said:
Steve Davis was considered a robot in his prime. Jimmy White and Alex Higgins were very much the artists.

Steve has won more titles than both put together and is on a par with O'Sullivan, Hendry and Davis as one of the all time greats.

Its all well and good using pointless metaphors to try and relate two completely different things but it makes no sense.

Rather than play like an "artist" I would rather play like a "robot". Robots get the job done with optimum efficiency with repeatbale results whilst artists are busy cutting off their ears.

Artists belong in the trickshot world whilst robots belong in the major tournaments.
Click to expand...

Great post, Pidge. And I agree 100%. Artists are not only cutting off their ears, they're also putting the muzzle of 12-ga shotguns in their mouth and pulling the trigger (ala Kurt Cobain).

-Sean
 
Petros Andrikop said:
Raymond Ceulemans is the most dominant billiard champion of all times with a record of more than 100 world titles, thus his nickname "mister 100".
Like every pro player he performed trick shots but not as a main part of his career.
He is a member of the BCA hall of fame.
Here are a few links:
http://home.bca-pool.com/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=36
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Ceulemans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V83bIhB1bWs
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Petros,

Sir,

If you had to classify Mr. 100 as either a robot or an artist, which would you say that he was? Or...would say that perhaps he had the consistency of a robot in his execution but with the creative & interpretive skills of an artist?

Was the cue in his hands like a 4" paint brush with which one uses to paint houses with a consistent side to side stroke or was the cue in his hands more like an assortment of an artist's brushes with which masterpieces can be created?

Thanks & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
I would just say he is one of the most systematic and dedicated billiard athletes ever.
Competitive billiard sports is a form of art, and like in every art the principles and elements used have to be coded and learned only in order to be surpassed after..
Petros
 
Petros Andrikop said:
I would just say he is one of the most systematic and dedicated billiard athletes ever.
Competitive billiard sports is a form of art, and like in every art the principles and elements used have to be coded and learned only in order to be surpassed after..
Petros
Click to expand...

Petros,

I understand.

Regards & Best Wishes Sir,
Rick
 
Billiards does improve the power of the stroke because the balls are heavier/larger

Petros Andrikop said:
Raymond Ceulemans is the most dominant billiard champion of all times with a record of more than 100 world titles, thus his nickname "mister 100".
Like every pro player he performed trick shots but not as a main part of his career.
He is a member of the BCA hall of fame.
Here are a few links:
http://home.bca-pool.com/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=36
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Ceulemans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V83bIhB1bWs
Click to expand...

I have always been a Raymond Ceulemans fan and he's certainly one of the best all time "Billiard Artists" (not trick shot artist, there's a difference).....he's considered a Master of the game of 3 Cushion Billiards and had one of the best point averages of his era.

There is a big difference between the Billiard stroke, in that it's designed to maximize the cue ball's (after contact) optimization. The points are all contingent of the cue ball doing exactly what's needed, as opposed to pool where the emphasis is on the object ball. (It doesn't matter much about what the cue ball does if you miss the object ball)

A longer follow through will maximize after contact spin, and while you may not be able to prove that with "robots" playing, the human players certainly "real eyes" this......the bottom line is Billiards and Pocket Billiards are different in direct relationship to the Cue Ball / Object Ball emphasis.

I played a lot of 3 Cushion Billiards when I was growing up and Billiards does improve the power of the stroke because the balls are heavier (and larger)....there is an issue when going back and forth between the two games, few champions can play both at a high level simultaneously.


I would just say he is one of the most systematic and dedicated billiard athletes ever.
Competitive billiard sports is a form of art, and like in every art the principles and elements used have to be coded and learned only in order to be surpassed after..
Petros
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2208378-465-500.jpg
 
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Great posts CJ!
I love that pool allows one to express themselves.
What fun would it be if everyone played like robots?
Artistry and consistency don't have to be exclusive of one another.
 
Neil said:
That's interesting, he's saying Ceulemans was wrong. Remember? You've been arguing the opposite for days now.;)
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I doubt that a champion says that another great champion (one of the greatest of all times here) is simply "wrong", we are talking about approaches which do not contradict each other.

If Mr Wiley wants to express that other great champions (of that caliber) are simply "wrong" he is able to write this himself I believe..
A few posts later Mr Wiley states his opinion explaining some of the differences between carom and pool and his admiration of another great champion, there is no argument from him stating that the great Ceulemans is "wrong", simply because Mr Ceulemans is not wrong..
You do not win more than 100 world titles in a game of the highest accuracy needed by playing "wrong", having "lack of knowledge" or "false perceptions", simple as that.

Mr Wiley honors the forum with valuable advice, and this is noted by most players since most players realise the value of advice given by all champions.
There is a a lot to learn from champions, as I wrote before it's very difficult to put them in the "wrong" side by any means..
Thanks,
Petros
 
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Variety is the Spice of Life in Many Ways, Shapes and Forms

Petros Andrikop said:
I doubt that a champion says that another great champion (one of the greatest of all times here) is simply "wrong", we are talking about approaches which do not contradict each other.
If Mr Wiley wants to express that other great champions (of that caliber) are simply "wrong" he is able to write this himself I believe..
Mr Wiley honors the forum with valuable advice, and this is noted by most players since most players realise the value of advice given by all champions.
There is a a lot to learn from champions, as I wrote before it's very difficult to put them in the "wrong" side by any means..
Thanks,
Petros
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I would be surprised if anyone would suggest Raymond would be "wrong"....that's like saying Ben Hogan was "wrong" about his golf techniques and systems....this is, of course, far from the truth, Raymond and Ben were icons of their given era and greatly influenced many Champions in both Billiards and Golf.

Some players seem to see things in either "black or white," however, there are many grey areas because we all process information differently. Pool and Billiards are extremely complex games that can be made simple to some and to others they may not be receptive to new or "different" information that violates their current "belief system" (it's difficult to let go of old ideas, even if they never produced effectiveness).

..... and yes, it would be boring if everyone did things exactly the same. "Different Stokes Accentuate Different Folks". 'The Game, {Ultimately} is the Teacher'


ben_hogan2.jpg
Raymond-Ceulemans-01.jpg
 
victorl said:
Great posts CJ!
I love that pool allows one to express themselves.
What fun would it be if everyone played like robots?
Artistry and consistency don't have to be exclusive of one another.
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Victor,

I just thought the statement in bold should be repeated.

A very good statement.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
naji said:
Thanks Petros for the long write up. I quote from Wikipedia,
"Ridder Raymond Ceulemans (born 12 July 1937 in Lier, Belgium) is a three-cushion billiards player and possibly the most dominant single figure in any one sport, having won 35 World Championship titles (23 in three-cushion + 12 in other carom disciplines), 48 European titles (23 in three-cushion) and 61 national titles"
Truthfully i did not hear of him before; no doubt he is a great player; but that does not make him a great physicist; Dr. Dave on the other hand, is Physicist, and knows all about the theory of object collisions; who do i trust more on analyzing the physics of pool? i also hear Mike Massey explain his power draw shot in a completely different way than the way he played it yet both ways the CB gets drawn twice table length .

Back to follow through, in pool you have rotational speed, and directional speed; we all know depending where the tip hits CB. Part of the energy goes to propel the CB forward and other part is to rotate the CB, either forward, backward, sides, or mixed rotation;
So say center ball hit, you will get max directional speed, CB will go up and down the table three or 4 times, with the same speed but tip at extreme bottom draw CB (kill shot) will go up and down maybe 2-3 times. With a lightly grip cue, you must do long follow through to allow you to have maximum cue forward speed so when tip hits CB at lowest point it gains maximum rotational speed; If you end up not following through, your brain would have send a signal to stop but by the time it gets to the muscles the CB would have already gone but your acceleration would have died and speed suffers; therefore, your rotational speed suffers too and not draw CB as much, or kill as much.
This is why follow through is critical. In Billiard, with a lot of english required, therefore rotational speed is dominant; hence follow through is required.

Rick, i apologize, you are right, weather and cloth type does make a difference on how much follow through required.

If you have a tight grip on the cue, then muscles weight/momentum kicks in and it will propel the CB directional as well as rotational speed with less follow through.
Hope that is better explanation.
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Back to follow through, like i said before follow through only purpose is to gain cue speed so CB gets the required rotational speed, and directional speed.
The attached video specifically shot # 4 about 1:11 frame note where the CB is placed for a reason to allow extended follow through into the pocket to gain speed of cue so it hit CB hard to make it jump, the other shots, note how hard the cue hits the table an indication of follow through to gain rotational as well as directional speed only

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89djI54kXxw
 
You are right about the jump shot where the follow through goes in the side pocket

naji said:
Back to follow through, like i said before follow through only purpose is to gain cue speed so CB gets the required rotational speed, and directional speed.
The attached video specifically shot # 4 about 1:11 frame note where the CB is placed for a reason to allow extended follow through into the pocket to gain speed of cue so it hit CB hard to make it jump, the other shots, note how hard the cue hits the table an indication of follow through to gain rotational as well as directional speed only

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89djI54kXxw
Click to expand...

FYI....she's increased the volume so the shot's sound is amplified, the cue just barely hits the table on the follow through. You are right about the jump shot where the follow through goes in the side pocket....that takes an incredible amount of speed, and the "right" equipment. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
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