Early 70's point blanks.

[classiccues]

What about Tikkler's cue?

What about it, he got it from us. No one refutes that Gus used WICO blanks. what is not known is ANY Meucci association to him regarding wood blanks, or with George Balabushka. There has NEVER been a WICO Balabushka surface or a wood one that looks like Bob could have made it. I have seen a black, orange, green and natural first catalog era Meucci and it would never be confused with a Spain blank.

The estimate is that Gus used 8-12 of these WICO blanks, lets not make it sound like it was 1/2 of Gus Szamboti's production. What makes a WICO Gus valuable is the rarity of the cue, not the fact that Bob Meucci designed the blank. However with a Palmer the reverse is true. The cues have added value because Gus built the blank. A Bushka is a split of the two, Gus blank Bushkas are rare because he made very few and Gus built the blank.

JV

 

[Bavafongoul]

IMO....the posts by Classic Cues are bullseyes........and I concur, not that it matters to most.

I do not for a moment suspect or believe that Mr. Meucci is lying. I believe his reputation is too important for him to stoop to trying to con people.

Nonetheless, the fact that what a 3rd party is claiming.....not Mr. Meucci who hasn't posted a single claim about making blanks for the great cue-makers named........does not correlate well with documented facts and pool history. Personally, if this was true, I firmly beleve it would not be being heard for the first time right here on the Forum. I submit that something like that would not have gone unnoticed and unmentioned for decades.......and numerous pool publications.........and by collectors and dealers too.

For charitable reasons, I want to believe the OP misheard or misunderstood his supposed conversation with Mr. Meucci and is misreporting the information which Mr. Meucci has never before claimed credit for and if he actually did, doing it now would make me doubt it. I mean in 50 years of pool playing across the nation in many different cities and nearly 30 years of buying and selling nothing but very high end collectible cues, I never heard anyone anywhere ever even hint that Bob Meucci made blanks for the great cue-makers. This is not something I would not have not discovered by now because I follow pool cue history very closely.

Personally speaking, I just find this post far-fetched and totally ludicrous. Bob Meucci ain't no Herman Rambow and his cue-making skills while more than competent do not even begin to approach the level of skills of the cue-makers already proven to have supplied blanks to George and Gus. As far as I'm concerneed, Bob Meucci has never said or claimed to have supplied blanks to Balabushka or Szamboti and until I read or hear him make that claim and "back it up".....then it just never happened. You see there's a reason why history gets documented in writing down thru the ages.......you are much less likely to get the facts wrong........important things and events are documented in writing and factually supported rather than by being recalled and recited by say.....memory, personal recollection, anecdotal conversation or just flat exaggeration.

I DO NOT BELIEVE THE OP...........Mr. Meucci has too much class to spin a yarn like this.

 

[classiccues]

Lets all back up for a second. Its historical facts that need to be protected, and this in no means in a Bob Meucci witch hunt. Bob should hang his hat on what he has done with Meucci cues, that would be enough for anyone. As far as I am concerned, after Palmer, he was the most influential production cuemaker in the world. At the time Meucci came into dominance, and yes, the word dominance applies, he had every known pro in the Meucci stable, his players and cues were dominating tournament play. It was the most recognizable cue of the late 80's and into the 90's, and he had cues for EVERY budget. Bob's legacy will have very little to do with points he made in the late 60's and early 70's.

JV

 

[cueman]

Joe has a good eye for photo shop stuff. It looked to me like it was printed on the Gandy flyer.

I think Joe is right about Bob's legacy being more important as to what he did with his cues than his blanks. It is not Bob's legacy that is important on this matter, it is as so many collectors have stated on here that they want to know where a blank in a rare cue came from. But what I am getting from all this is that people are afraid if the blank was associated with Bob it might devalue them. I am convinced the Wico blanks were Bob's just as he claimed. I am also convinced he sold the other wood veneer blanks to George and other top makers. Joe has pretty much called Bob a liar and the other person's post above pretty much calls me a liar.

But I will say it again: I did not get my info second hand like you are getting it from me. I got my info straight from Bob himself.

 

[nick serdula]

Many years ago Bob built Cues in his guagage

St. Louie Louie took Dick Hunzicker to have a Cue made. He told Bob that Dick was the best 9 ball player on the planet. Dick just asked for a Cue with a steel joint over 21 ozs. and balance in front of the wrap.
Dick would later bust Mezz, Buddy hall, Rempe, Ronnie Allen, and everyone else that came through Pensacola wanting action. Dick was a Brunswick distrubitor and owned a poolroom here.
Before Bob made production Cues he made one monster of a Cue as did Helmstetter.
Players would take one look at Dick's Cue and he had action. He looked like an idiot with a Mooch. Then he would bust their nuts.
When Bob went to vacum cured shafts his Cues went down hill fast. But they cost him less to build. And they still sold like hot cakes.
Hard to not believe his tale. Jimi Matz also played with an old shaft wood Mooch. He drilled Earl and spotted him the 8! No coincidence.
Nick

 

[classiccues]

Chris,
Then the OTHER top cuemaker that got involved with us, during the first go around, via personal e-mail must also be calling Bob a liar, right?
- Facts: Price sheets exist for Burton Spain in the 1966-8ish time period. I know because I have a copy. These sheets were for cuemakers to order blanks from.
- John Davis is alive and can attest that he and Burton sold blanks to George in that time period, which you were told by the other cuemaker
- Rubino to whom I have spoken mentioned that during the first encyclopedia and blue book that Bob NEVER made mention that he made blanks for anyone. You would think that during the questioning process which was in depth to say the least, important info like this would have surfaced.

I find it a bit strange that Bob left out information for this long, only to present it to the ICA during your HOF induction time / process what ever you would like to call it. Because he has had PLENTY of opportunity to mention this. Bob has been to many shows, not once did he look at many or ANY of the Bushkas and say hey.. I might have made that blank.

So Chris, I don't like to use the term liar, because its a little harsh. I might be inclined to use the term embellish. But it could be true, he could have sold blanks to them, they also theoretically, may have never made it into a cue.

JV

Joe has a good eye for photo shop stuff. It looked to me like it was printed on the Gandy flyer.

I think Joe is right about Bob's legacy being more important as to what he did with his cues than his blanks. It is not Bob's legacy that is important on this matter, it is as so many collectors have stated on here that they want to know where a blank in a rare cue came from. But what I am getting from all this is that people are afraid if the blank was associated with Bob it might devalue them. I am convinced the Wico blanks were Bob's just as he claimed. I am also convinced he sold the other wood veneer blanks to George and other top makers. Joe has pretty much called Bob a liar and the other person's post above pretty much calls me a liar.

But I will say it again: I did not get my info second hand like you are getting it from me. I got my info straight from Bob himself.

 

[classiccues]

This is a Burton Spain FULL SPLICE ebony blank

JV

 

[Onecrazyplayer]

Yep

Great reading guys! Great reading.

 

[Highmiles]

I want to thank every participant in this discussion. I am always amazed by the wealth of information presented in this forum.

 

[$TAKE HOR$E]

No offense Chris, but having seen a lot of the notes and heard the tapes from the Encyclopedia and first BB research, you would think this would have been mentioned a lot earlier. Unless he comes with a receipt, or Tascarella comes with confirmation through the Bushka archives, I don't think his memory is going to qualify.
JV

I take it that means Blue Book, how accurate are they actually? I mean there are a select few that know a lot more than any of those books combined. They are a good reference and guide I suppose but when it comes to certain aspects they are way off. For instance the amount of cues some of the makers are reportedly turning out. I know for a fact those numbers are off, and by a lot. Also the price guide for a cue build, repair work or adding certain accoutrements is a little sketchy. Just something I always wondered about and figured a thread like this was a good place to ask.

 

[cueman]

No one seemed to know Bob built the Wico blanks and yet that one has been confirmed as true. Why should I doubt the rest of what he said? Bob is from the old school, keep your secrets age of cuemakers and my guess is that people did not want it to be known who provides their blanks. So out of consideration he never let it be known. I was recently turned on to a source of some great material by a well known cuemaker. He told me if the cuemaker that told him about it was still active in cuemaking that he would not tell me.

I never saw an article in a magazine quoting the all old timers telling where they bought their blanks. The makers of the blanks decided when they would share that info.

 

[classiccues]

You're right. No one knew anything really until Burtons booklet came out. It shed a lot of light on the subject, but since it broke taboo, I would have thought there would be "more" people coming out. However, I still doubt many stories because there needs to be some corroboration on some level.

According to Spains book, Bob abandoned the vinyl veneers after only a little while. We know WICO forearms have been on Szambotis, Palmers, Gandy, National and Viking. We do not know for certain who was supplying those blanks. (Viking made their own after a while)

If Bob made those blanks in the early 70's, which coincides with Szamboti using them, where did Palmer get theirs in the mid to late 60's? All the WICO Palmers I have seen are from the first catalog. Which is 65-66 time frame. Could they have been the original Burton prongs? That's what I would guess, and if Bob is not putting them (Palmer) on the list of people who bought blanks from him, then that could be a possibility.

JV

No one seemed to know Bob built the Wico blanks and yet that one has been confirmed as true. Why should I doubt the rest of what he said? Bob is from the old school, keep your secrets age of cuemakers and my guess is that people did not want it to be known who provides their blanks. So out of consideration he never let it be known. I was recently turned on to a source of some great material by a well known cuemaker. He told me if the cuemaker that told him about it was still active in cuemaking that he would not tell me.

I never saw an article in a magazine quoting the all old timers telling where they bought their blanks. The makers of the blanks decided when they would share that info.

 

[cueman]

You're right. No one knew anything really until Burtons booklet came out. It shed a lot of light on the subject, but since it broke taboo, I would have thought there would be "more" people coming out. However, I still doubt many stories because there needs to be some corroboration on some level.

According to Spains book, Bob abandoned the vinyl veneers after only a little while. We know WICO forearms have been on Szambotis, Palmers, Gandy, National and Viking. We do not know for certain who was supplying those blanks. (Viking made their own after a while)

If Bob made those blanks in the early 70's, which coincides with Szamboti using them, where did Palmer get theirs in the mid to late 60's? All the WICO Palmers I have seen are from the first catalog. Which is 65-66 time frame. Could they have been the original Burton prongs? That's what I would guess, and if Bob is not putting them (Palmer) on the list of people who bought blanks from him, then that could be a possibility.

JV

It has already been proven on here that Palmer got them from Bob. I am too tired to use the search function to show you that. As far as I know Burton never perfected it and abandoned the seemless veneers. I think that can also be proven if you do a search for Thomas Wayne posts. Bob said he actually did them on a challenge from Burton that it could not be done.

 

[classiccues]

I read the Palmer / Wico verbiage in the earlier part of the thread. Again, I am not disputing where they got them from. However it seems the majority of the cues (Palmers) that have vinyl veneer prongs, are the first catalog era. That's all I am pointing out. Below is the verbiage from Burton Spains book regarding vinyl veneers, people can read it any way they would like. I prefer to read it as its written, and it does appear that he did make prongs and cues with the vinyl veneers.

Only one person can gain anything from Bob's claims, all I am saying is if he did it, great, but anyone can make the claim that has been around long enough. Hell Verl Horn supplied them to, or Bert Schrager, or whomever. But just like in Bobs case, all people will ask for is some sort of proof. I had a glimpse of some Balabushka partials Pete Sr has left, there is no question whom made the parts he has. None of which are from Bob that I can assure you.

It is not out of the realm of possibility that Bob sent them some samples of wood veneer prongs that were not used, or have yet to be found, or identified in a cue. I see strange old sh*t all the time, so IMHO nothing surprises me. I would like to see samples of Bobs cues from the late 60's and early 70's surface just to see the quality, colors of the veneers, etc.

As far as revealing sources, well Burtons book was published well before the BB and Encyclopedias, and all the cuemakers had input into their own sections, which you are aware. So I would bet that Bob read Burtons memoirs, so again, its pure skepticism founded on the availability of the proper time to interject a fact, and the lack thereof in regards to subsequent print media.

Lets be a little realistic also. Both Szamboti and Balabushka were driven to perfection. Its why George bought the best available and why Gus developed his own prong. Looking at Bobs production cues, there is NO WAY, if those were the quality of blanks he offered, they make it into a cue from either one of those guys. Sorry, that is the fact. That's the other reason, I would love to see cues from Bobs 1971 ish BMC catalog. Its the other factor that makes the claim a little unbelievable. The last thing is its very important to clarify that the WICO or BMC blanks, that Gus used was under 12. In a way you could phrase it as the blank that forced Gus into his own production of blank. So be careful on how far you want to drive this point home without proof. Remember you bought this back to the forefront with an obviously forged brochure.

JV

It has already been proven on here that Palmer got them from Bob. I am too tired to use the search function to show you that. As far as I know Burton never perfected it and abandoned the seemless veneers. I think that can also be proven if you do a search for Thomas Wayne posts. Bob said he actually did them on a challenge from Burton that it could not be done.

 

[classiccues]

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=104608

BTW for those following, may have missed this thread...

JV

 

[PDX]

1973 he built the so called "Wico blanks" that were made with seamless plastic veneers. I say so called, because he made them while he worked with Wico, but that was a side business of his and Wico was not involved in the the manufacturering.

I know this is an old thread, and I've read it a number of times, but I found a fullsplice wico house cue with the Wico sticker on it. This was a few years ago. I passed on it as I didn't recognize the importance of the cue and wasn't going to buy a cue with plastic veneers. Hindsight is 20/20.

 

[Chopdoc]

I know this is an old thread, and I've read it a number of times, but I found a fullsplice wico house cue with the Wico sticker on it. This was a few years ago. I passed on it as I didn't recognize the importance of the cue and wasn't going to buy a cue with plastic veneers. Hindsight is 20/20.

I love these topics.

I have a Gandy cue with WICO points, an HC-150 with two original shafts.

You passed up a WICO house cue? Holy crap! Yeah, hindsight is 20/20.


.