Efren or Allison?

just came across this article on the event from archer's web site

The U.S. OPEN 14.1 Straight-Pool POCKET BILLIARDS CHAMPIONSHIP was held April 12-16, 2000 in New York City, at the Roseland Ballroom. Johnny Archer felt real good going into the tournament, "I felt like I was playing good, my elbow wasn't hurting me too bad and I felt like I could run a lot of balls."

Johnny's first match was against Greg Fix, and he beat Greg 150-74. Then Johnny had to play Ralf Souquet (Ralf ended up winning the tournament) and with Souquet, Johnny didn't perform like he wanted to, "I made a few mistakes and it cost me." Johnny lost 120-150 against Souquet.

Johnny's first match on the one loss side was against Tom Storm, from Sweden. Johnny beat Tom with a score of 150-81. Then he played Takashi Toda, who is from Japan, and Johnny beat him 150-24. Johnny had his high run of the tournament during that match with Toda with an impress run of 118. (Takashi Toda had beat Dallas West, lost to Tom Walter and then beat Jeremy Jones before meeting up with Johnny).

Johnny then had to play Tony Robles. Tony ended up beating Johnny 150-24. Tony Robles had the high run of the tournament against Johnny in this match, running 148 balls. Johnny said it was "tough to sit and watch, and not get a chance at all." Johnny added, "But, I could have done the same thing to him. It wasn't such a bad loss because I didn't get much of a chance."

Johnny Archer ended up finishing in 9th place and earning $1,000. Was he happy with his finish? "I am not happy unless I win," he said. "I could have played a little better. Could have played a little worse; probably got out of the tournament what I put in."

Johnny ended up watching the remaining players for the rest of the tournament. He said he liked watching Dick Lane, "He impressed me a lot and I liked watching him play because he doesn't make many mistakes." Johnny also said he liked watching Sigel back to playing again.
 
cuechick said:
It was 150, he started at a -2 and had he mad his last 2 balls he would have had the <i> all time</i> High Run Record.
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Only the US Open record, not the record for straight pool competition with races to 150. Joe Balsis ran over 160 in the straight pool era in a race to 150. I think his run was 166 but I'm not that sure.
 
Jimmy M. said:
I don't even know you, but I'm pretty confident when I say that I'm sure he breaks better than you. Yes, in the 80's and part of the 90's his break was pretty weak for a player of his caliber, but that has changed. He doesn't do all of the jumping around theatrics of some of the "big breakers", but the guy has a solid break. Have you, by any chance, watched any of his 9-ball matches from the last 2 DCC's? You're only seeing what you want to see to support your beliefs if you have honestly seen the guy break in recent years and still think "he can't break worth a shit". You should play him some next time he's in a town near you. He gives up a lot of weight, and he'll even play fairly cheap. I see him playing locals at Hard Times for $100/set some times. I think you'll come away from the game with a different outlook on his break.
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He'll play races to 5 for $50.
 
From Allison Fisher's Official Website:

"Q. Have you ever thought about playing in open events against the guys?

A. I occasionally enter open tournaments but I don't see this becoming a regular thing in the foreseeable future. If there was to be a match between myself and one of the best male players, I would like to do it in a one on one TV situation."

Paging KT!
 
sjm said:
Efren may have said it, but he's just beig kind. Efren's backers have offered Allison the six and out, and the game was declined by her backers, wisely in my opinion. Cliff Joyner beat Fisher a few years back fairly easily giving the six.

Three on the wire going to eleven sounds about right between Allison and any of the top fifteen men in the world.

With due respect, this comparison is ridiculous.
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well put :D
 
hsholes said:
Okay,first of all,if any of you have watched Allison play,she doesn't miss.Second of all she is not about gambling.I've never seen her get involved in any money matches.Third of all,she doesn't miss!
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on new cloth and big pockets who doesnt
 
Renegade said:
If you're saying Efren can beat Allison in snooker I'll take that bet! I'll bet all my vCash that Allison will beat Efren handily in snooker!
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he will beat her at anygame with pockets or no pockets if they play long enough
 
Renegade said:
This is no joke. Efren once commented that Allison can beat him if and when they play against each other.
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Allison can't beat Efren with 6-out imo.
If Santos can give Jennifer Chen the 6-out and rob her, Efren can do the same to Allison.
Allison got the 7-out from Coltrain iirc and got robbed.
Allison has dominated the ladies tour much much more than Efren has dominated the men's tour though.
 
Pete said:
Yea,

The reason she doesn't compete with men, is she doesn't know how to come in less then number 2 in an event.

Don't get me wrong, she's one of the three best woman players in the world, and one of probally 500 players in th world, but she doesn't compete in open events to my knowledge, Corr does (and doesn't come in 1st all that often), and no one has even suggester her as being any compition for Efren (or any of the other top men).

The only way Alison would have a fighting chance with any of the top players would be to get the first break, in a race to 3, because I don't think I have ever seen her break and run more than three rack on TV (I could be wrong, and if so please forgive me). On the other hand I've seen Efren play a 1000 against Jim Wych (spelling may be off).

By the way, I think Efren is the best all around player. But Buddy will always be my all time favoret to win against any body (I love his game).

If I have offended any one out there, let me state that I don't think that women can't play pool as well as men. But at this time they don't at the highest level of both groups sorry.

As a note, Jenn Barreta, said that in the top 16 or so, they would only be ranked 6s & 7s in the APA.

I'm in the APA, and have played with many 6s & 7s, they can't compete at the world class level period. :(


Pete
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I play with Kelly Fisher often and she plays just about as good as a human being can play. It's RARE that she misses an open shot. Jennifer Barretta is way off base if she thinks that ANY player in the top 16 of the WPBA would be less than a 7 in the APA.

Kelly regularly runs four and five packs. She beats the 9 and 10 ball ghost.

CJ Wiley commented a few years ago that Allison can PLAY.

Allison has ZERO incentive to PROVE anything against the male players. She is comfortably ensconced at number one in her field. Why should she go up against the thousands of male pool players who don't have a chance to dominate their gender the way she dominates hers.

It's all about mass making class. IF there were equal numbers of women playing pool as there are men then there would be about an equal number of world class players and occassionally there would be a woman at the top.

It's funny that you mention Corr playing in open events and your comment is that "she doesn't come in first that often". I think until Karen started winning these Joss Tour events the comments probably would have been more along the line of Karen never having a chance to come in first at all.

Allison has beaten Tommy Kennedy and a lot of other good players to win the only Pechauer Tour Stop she entered.

Allie vs. Efren? In any given set I'd say that they both have a chance to win. In the long haul Efren's experience and knowledge will bring home the win. Allison does benefit from unforced errors by her opponents, as does Efren.

Allison getting the six out? I just can't see any male player alive being able to do that consisently. Allison is just too strong. Would Efren give Tommy Kennedy the six out? I have $2000 to bet on Kelly Fisher if she gets the six out from Efren. I have a friend who plays pretty sporty who beat Efren several years ago at Hard Times while getting the six out and he doesn't play Kelly's speed. So, if Kelly goes to the DCC and we can make it happen I'll bet my two dimes on that game if all parties are willing and able.

As far as whether Allison or Efren are in competition as the best all around, that's not even a debate. Efren, I think, has shown that he can easily adapt to any pool game he chooses to play. His dominance at the DCC and his ability to win big purses against championship fields proves that he is worlds above Allison as an all around player. Part of the problem is that Allison has completely outclassed most of her peers for a decade and only competed in two disciplines, 9-ball and a little 14.1. Efren has had to compete in four disciplines, 9-ball, 10-ball, one pocket, and banks against fields where a quarter of the field has a legitimate shot at winning the tournament.

The one thing about Efren is that he keeps on winning and keeps on impressing us. It seems like he gets better as he gets older.

John
 
Fred Agnir said:
I think this is where you and Cuechick are grossly underestimating Efren. Allison's safety game is great vs. her competition. But Efren's safety game and more importantly, his kicking (both aggressive and defensive) is better than anyone in the world. The only people that were close on a consistent basis are Jose, and Sigel, IMNSHO.

So, if you break it down:

Break - anyone who thinks Efren isn't a better breaker is a lunatic
Shotmaking - tossup
Control - Allison
Creativity - Efren
Power Shots - Efren
Super Delicate Shots - Efren
Safety - Efren
Kicks -Efren
Gambling - Efren (which is a reason this is a stupid discussion... Allison has no reason to shoot this match)

There's probably more to list, but I think people who see Allison run racks, and get safe on her peers might not see the whole picture. My opinions are just that, but the following fact, not opinion:

There have been a couple of opportunities to see Allison against one of the men. But, both times that I know of, she didn't win the women's tournament to get a shot at it. One was on TV where the finals ended up being CJ Wiley vs. Vivian (CJ destroyed her), and one was at the Brunswick WPBA in NYC at AMsterdam where again, Vivian beat Allison in the tourney and ended up getting shelled by Ginky afterwards.

And this was at a time where Allison was winning everything.

Fred
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Seems like Vivian wants to play the guys more than Allison does. :-)

Jb
 
Riggs was way past his prime, smoked a lot, and i heard he bet against himself in vegas.
 
Sorry if that statment was out of left field but someone mentioned that tennis match earlier. I don't know why there is always a long debate on this subject, when most people agree. Allison can not beat efren- let alone anybody else in the world in a long set! :p
 
rossaroni said:
Sorry if that statment was out of left field but someone mentioned that tennis match earlier. I don't know why there is always a long debate on this subject, when most people agree. Allison can not beat efren- let alone anybody else in the world in a long set! :p
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There is a debate because no one really knows HOW GOOD Allison really is. Is she as good or better than Balukas? Who knows? Allison has certainly dominated the women in a time when everyone agrees that the fields are way stronger than when Balukas was playing. The men all agree that Balukus had(has) a world class game.

I certainly don't agree that Allison couldn't win a long set against anyone in the world. I believe that in any given set she could win with no spot. Will she win every set? No. The majority of sets? Probably not. Some sets? Certainly.

Allison Fisher plays just about technically perfect. If she gets the rolls then she can take down anyone in any given set. The difference will be her male opponent's knowledge and willingness to gamble on lower percentage shots. Allison, for example, could not be expected to know the high percentage banks that one pocket players know. She probably doens't know how to kill her cueball with some off-angle reverse bank that a one-pocket player sees as a hanger. These things will make the difference. Let her have the same amount of experience in those games and I believe the debate would be a lot closer to it being a coin flip.

John
 
Sorry guys. I didn't mean Allison could not beat anyone. I meant nobody could beat efren. Sorry for the mix up. :confused:
 
rossaroni said:
Sorry guys. I didn't mean Allison could not beat anyone. I meant nobody could beat efren. Sorry for the mix up. :confused:
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I actually knew what you meant- i was just breakin'm:)
 
sjm said:
Efren may have said it, but he's just beig kind. Efren's backers have offered Allison the six and out, and the game was declined by her backers, wisely in my opinion. Cliff Joyner beat Fisher a few years back fairly easily giving the six.

Three on the wire going to eleven sounds about right between Allison and any of the top fifteen men in the world.

With due respect, this comparison is ridiculous.
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yeah, people see allison run out every time she shoots, and may get a false impression of her game. i know she shoots good but efren could give her quite a bit, he's just so perfectly seasoned and makes no mistakes.

i do speak from experience on this subject and i also know that he gave tang hoa the 6 ball at one point, and tang lost. if you dont know, tang made it to the finals of the us open one year and another year he went through the one pocket division at derby undefeated... that is untill efren beat him twice in the finals. he did knock efren to the losers side that tournament however.
 
Why not...

make it the best of 3 out of 5, of sets.

9 ball = race to 9
56 1 pocket = race to 1
8 ball = race to 8
10 ball = race to 4
38 to go out.

See what they know, allow them to shine.

Once in a while, Pros need a challenge. So... Challenge them.


Edit: ment for Mr. Efren and Ms. Fisher.
 
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