Elbow dropping... innocuous or a damnable curse?

Elbow dropping... innocuous or a damnable curse?


  • Total voters
    117
I was watching a couple youtube videos of Yang Chin-Shun yesterday. He's the best 9ball player in the planet, and he drops his elbow.

Marlon Manalo has a significant elbow drop as well. Same with Orcullo.

Looking at the most recent videos of Landon Shuffet, he too now drops his elbow.

I don't think any of those four players are "cursed", wouldn't you say?
 
jsp said:
I was watching a couple youtube videos of Yang Chin-Shun yesterday. He's the best 9ball player in the planet, and he drops his elbow.

Marlon Manalo has a significant elbow drop as well. Same with Orcullo.

Looking at the most recent videos of Landon Shuffet, he too now drops his elbow.

I don't think any of those four players are "cursed", wouldn't you say?


If you practice anything, right or wrong, you can become very proficient.....SPF=randyg
 
jsp said:
I was watching a couple youtube videos of Yang Chin-Shun yesterday. He's the best 9ball player in the planet, and he drops his elbow.

Marlon Manalo has a significant elbow drop as well. Same with Orcullo.

Looking at the most recent videos of Landon Shuffet, he too now drops his elbow.

I don't think any of those four players are "cursed", wouldn't you say?

I think it is a mistake to watch pros and say that we should do what they do. They developed their proficiencies despite doing things incorrectly. Do you think you could deliver a proper hit on a cue ball always aiming using bottom-center on the cueball then swerving at the last minute lik Django? Or could you stroke like Keith McCreedy and still sink a ball. I don't think so.
To say elbow drop is not a "curse" and to say that it is a desirable thing are two entirely different propositions. I know I play much better since Scott Lee eliminated my elbow drop (credit to Randy too for the ground work in pool school). Of course, I'm only one case and maybe an aberation.
 
jsp said:
I was watching a couple youtube videos of Yang Chin-Shun yesterday. He's the best 9ball player in the planet, and he drops his elbow.

Marlon Manalo has a significant elbow drop as well. Same with Orcullo.

Looking at the most recent videos of Landon Shuffet, he too now drops his elbow.

I don't think any of those four players are "cursed", wouldn't you say?

This is new to me, and somewhat of interest.

First thing that comes to mind is, do these players know they are dropping their elbows? How big is the drop? On all or many shots, or only on some? If they realize they are dropping their elbows, do they care, or perhaps, is it on purpose? And then, why do they drop their elbows?

Flex
 
Flex said:
This is new to me, and somewhat of interest.

First thing that comes to mind is, do these players know they are dropping their elbows? How big is the drop? On all or many shots, or only on some? If they realize they are dropping their elbows, do they care, or perhaps, is it on purpose? And then, why do they drop their elbows?

Flex

Watch Effie stroke not just elbow drop, side way swing too (LOL, I think he is compensating for the slightly bigger mid-section he has now).

This has been discussed many-many times here. Should everyone use a text-book stroke like Archer? Do you force yourself to be in a text-book form even when you're not comfortable? What's with Django, Mike Davis and Effie's rollcoaster stroke?

I think Kuo Po-Cheng(the other Taiwanese great) puts it clearly, aim for the "fluidity of your stroke" from practice stroke up to the follow thru. I think the gist is to improve what comes naturally. (Correct aiming is implied of course.)
 
Last edited:
catscradle said:
I think it is a mistake to watch pros and say that we should do what they do. They developed their proficiencies despite doing things incorrectly. Do you think you could deliver a proper hit on a cue ball always aiming using bottom-center on the cueball then swerving at the last minute lik Django? Or could you stroke like Keith McCreedy and still sink a ball. I don't think so.
To say elbow drop is not a "curse" and to say that it is a desirable thing are two entirely different propositions. I know I play much better since Scott Lee eliminated my elbow drop (credit to Randy too for the ground work in pool school). Of course, I'm only one case and maybe an aberation.
Of course Django and the Keith will always be exceptions to the rule when it comes to mechanics.

But you're right, saying the elbow drop is a "curse" and saying it's desirable are two different things. My vote and my original post is meant to answer the question if the elbow drop is an "undesirable" thing.

But you know what, I'm actually beginning to think that dropping your elbow can actually be the desirable thing to do, depending on the current state of your game.

I just got finished watching a clip of the Mizerak vs. Butera straight pool video I saved on my computer, and guess what?..the Miz significantly drops his elbow too! Many posters on here (including myself) believe that Steve had the best pool stroke in the world. But yet, he drops his elbow...along with it seems the vast majority of the top professionals. (I also watched the video clip of the start of Sigel's 150-and-out, and yup...Mike drops his elbow in that video as well.)

To me, dropping the elbow is just the natural motion of the pool stroke which aids in providing power and especially feel. Keeping my elbow perfectly still through impact and follow through has always felt a bit unnatural and restrictive to me. BUT I admit, I have noticed a more consistent and repeatable stroke when I do keep my elbow still. But it comes at the expense of reduced power and feel.

So my official opinion to this whole elbow dropping thing is this... Keep your elbow still if you seek to have a consistent and repeatable stroke. However, if you already have a consistent and repeatable stroke, then do what is natural such that you don't sacrifice power and feel, provided what you do won't affect your stroke's consistency. Apparently to many top pros, dropping their elbow is what comes naturally.
 
Last edited:
Flex said:
This is new to me, and somewhat of interest.

First thing that comes to mind is, do these players know they are dropping their elbows? How big is the drop? On all or many shots, or only on some? If they realize they are dropping their elbows, do they care, or perhaps, is it on purpose? And then, why do they drop their elbows?

Flex
I think if you ask all the pros who drop their elbows (which is the majority of them) why they do it, most of them won't even realize they do it nor would they care at all. They would just say that they do whatever feels natural for them to execute the shot.
 
jsp said:
... Many posters on here (including myself) believe that Steve had the best pool stroke in the world...

Totally off-topic from the current thread, but just have to say that would be Buddy Hall. Smooth as butter. :D
 
Ever come across a player who has soooo much movement in his arm and shoulder when down and stroking his warm up shots that they almost take you out of stroke just watching them??

I've seen a few, and avoid watching them. They can be a plague on you, a pox on your house. For some reason the guys I'm thinking of also like to shovel for what seems like an eternity, easily shoveling 12-15 times before pulling the trigger.

I bet they saw someone else doing that stuff and figure that's what it takes to shoot. They probably also think they look cool while shoveling...

Flex
 
Flex said:
I bet they saw someone else doing that stuff and figure that's what it takes to shoot. They probably also think they look cool while shoveling...

Flex

Yep! Although imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, imitating the wrong process can set your stroke back a long ways.

For those of you that believe an elbow drop is necessary for power or action on the CB, I have put out this challenge before (even to some other master instructors). Show me a shot that you can make using an elbow drop, that I cannot make with a perfect pendulum stroke (this includes the break). Haven't seen one yet. :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Scott Lee said:
Yep! Although imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, imitating the wrong process can set your stroke back a long ways.

For those of you that believe an elbow drop is necessary for power or action on the CB, I have put out this challenge before (even to some other master instructors). Show me a shot that you can make using an elbow drop, that I cannot make with a perfect pendulum stroke (this includes the break). Haven't seen one yet. :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com


:D...Count me in....SPF=randyg
 
VIProfessor said:
A session with Tony Robles has really made me aware of the perils of a collapsing elbow. It clearly causes an inadvertent raising of the tip and it ruins an otherwise good stroke.

well, a "Collapsing" elbow is a long, LONG ways from a "Slight" elbow drop.

i agree, collapsing is absolutely not good. but given all the top level pros that have a very slight drop, it seems like if your stroke is straight and repeating...............:confused:

DCP

p.s. hope someone doesnt crucify me for posting this. :eek:
 
Scott Lee said:
Yep! Although imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, imitating the wrong process can set your stroke back a long ways.

For those of you that believe an elbow drop is necessary for power or action on the CB, I have put out this challenge before (even to some other master instructors). Show me a shot that you can make using an elbow drop, that I cannot make with a perfect pendulum stroke (this includes the break). Haven't seen one yet. :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I'm not questioning the mechanics, but how long can you keep the pendulum form during marathon games? How natural is the position?
 
Last edited:
jsp said:
I think if you ask all the pros who drop their elbows (which is the majority of them) why they do it, most of them won't even realize they do it nor would they care at all. They would just say that they do whatever feels natural for them to execute the shot.

i think i would tend to agree with this. but i think its important to realize that pros who collapse their elbows are few and far between. if i was to categorize pro's into three categories, i'd probably put the following categories and percentages together:

Pro's With No Elbow Drop - 20%
Pro's With A Slight Elbow Drop - 75%
Pro's With Collapsing Or Something Else - 5%

DCP
 
crosseyedjoe said:
I'm not questioning the mechanics, but how long can you keep the pendulum form during marathon games? How natural is the position?

joe...As long as I can keep playing. This is such a natural position for me, that I can do it with my eyes closed...forever! Many folks seem to mistakenly believe that this process involves being rigid. Nothing is further from the truth. It is exactly the opposite...a very relaxed elbow movement, that does NOT involve the shoulder muscles at all. Now...is it true that you might have to RELEARN this type of swing, and as such, it might "feel" unnatural and/or uncomfortable for awhile? Absolutely! However, with structured, disciplined practice, for a short period of time (varies from student to student, but an average is a month or less), the pendulum swing becomes very easy to do.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
It is much more difficult to use a pendulum stroke with no elbow drop if you have your chin on the cue. Once you bring your shoulder closer to the table and lower in relationship to your elbow you greatly restrict your range of motion. Having short arms myself I have noticed that it is much easier and more natural to use the pendulum (with no elbow drop) when I raise my head off the cue. This raises my shoulder and allows my cue to follow thru further. I have yet to see a pro that does not drop their elbow on some shots, even Allison does.
 
cuekev said:
I have yet to see a pro that does not drop their elbow on some shots, even Allison does.

Tony Robles, Randyg and me (not that we're on the same scale as Tony!:eek:). There are others...

BTW Kevin...we made you aware of the 'chin on the cue' thing back in poolschool. If you chose not to change your stance a tiny bit, don't blame the pendulum swing for it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Actually I find that I need a lower stance to help bring my grip hand all the way through, especially on draw shots. I guess it depends on your body type.
 
Scott Lee said:
Tony Robles, Randyg and me (not that we're on the same scale as Tony!:eek:). There are others...

BTW Kevin...we made you aware of the 'chin on the cue' thing back in poolschool. If you chose not to change your stance a tiny bit, don't blame the pendulum swing for it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Easy Scott! I think you misinterpreted my post. I am not disagreeing with you. I am saying that it works better when you raise your head a little off the cue. Yes Randy mentioned that to me at PS and it was very good advice. It does not work as well when you have your chin on the cue. I therefore am shooting with my head and shoulder higher. I am glad I went to Pool School and continue to incorporate the methods that you and Randy taught. Little by little it is all coming together. I now hold the cue back further so that my lower arm is perpendicular to the cue. That advice came from you and I thank you again.

Not to be a PITA but I Youtubed Tony Robles to check his form. He also drops his elbow. I am just looking for a pro that has almost no elbow drop.

Thanks again,
 
Back
Top