Elbow dropping... innocuous or a damnable curse?

Elbow dropping... innocuous or a damnable curse?

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    117
Klopek said:
Have you tried this shot scenario without the tight close bridge?. I can generate way more top spin using an open bridge than a closed bridge. But like you, this is just my personal experience.:)

By the way, I'm not busting your balls, we're just brainstorming is all.
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Of course I've tried it that way. I miscue too often if I'm really gripping and ripping it...

When I say tight, I don't mean I'm squeezing down on the shaft. It has be able to move smoothly through the bridge. Tight enough for very accurate tip placement on the cue ball, and confidence that no miscue will inadvertently occur.

Flex
 
Bob Jewett said:
Yes. Evidently you missed a major point in your recent lesson. Or maybe you were kidding again.

I'll assume you weren't kidding. Get on the table. Get in position to hit the ball at the set position, with the tip at the center of the cue ball. Look back at your elbow. Move it down four inches. Turn around and look at your tip.
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ok, i was confused with my "Scooping" of the cue ball. when i drop the elbow i then hit the cue ball with this "upward" motion instead of level, and therefore scoop the cue ball.

right?

DCP
 
Klopek said:
You have to figure out why you're miscuing using an open bridge, that's where your answer truly lies.

I sense this could be headed south, so I'll leave it alone.
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Well, perhaps you're right about that. Maybe I'm anticipating a bit, when getting ready to try to pull off a very tough shot.

As for the need for a good, tight bridge, at times it's useful to quote experts. Here are a few: Mark Wilson and Larry Schwartz. Also, on some of these shots, I'm using back hand english, or point and pivot english, whatever you want to call it, and when the tip is way out or near the edge of the cue ball and the danger of a miscue is greater, I find I can more accurately execute the shot.


To each his own.

Flex

Edit: There's a new thread on forming a closed bridge here: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=70218

I particularly like one of his comments: "But somehow, the plebe following these directions frequently ends up with a "loop" the size of the Holland Tunnel, or at least one the size of a golf ball. And to get a small loop as well as a stable base requires stress positions that should be checked against the Geneva Conventions."
 
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perhaps i'm misunderstanding something, i didnt have time to read this thread, i drop my elbow right after impact not before, it dosent move until i hit the CB my arm is at a 90 degree angle or perhapd a little tighter 88 degree angle when the tip hit the rock then the elbow drops as the cue is going through the CB. isnt that the objective? when i get my back sorted out and a table up in my house-instead of the ex's house like it is now, i'm going to have someone come here and give me lessions for a few days, I have a nice place for who ever wants to come here and give me lessions, i'm a good host, the table will be perfect, lights etc i dont do things half way. who delivers lessions to vegas?
 
This is JMHO but I have found that the pendulum stroke works better for me when I have my lower arm perpendicular to the cue not the table at cue ball address. I also have found that it is difficult to use the pendulum stroke the lower I have my shoulder in relation to my elbow. If I have my chin on the cue (like I have done in the past) it restricts the follow thru on the stroke. I tend to want to drop my elbow and punch at the cue ball. I now try to shot with my upper arm parallel to the table and that allows a much more natural stroke. Very loose grip also helps.
 
Klopek said:
To each his own, but if a shot is so difficult, why not just avoid using side spin.
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Ah, if that were only an option. However, for some shots, that side spin is necessary to get the cue ball around the table. Sometimes it's also necessary to avoid a scratch. If you don't want to shoot the kind of shot that I'm referring to, that's fine.:D Turns out that I love that kind of shot! :D :eek:

Flex
 
gpeezy said:
You almost have to do it to follow through.
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gpeezy...Absolutely not! Elbow drop has nothing to do with follow through.
What it does do, is incorporate a second set of muscles...shoulder AND bicep, vs. bicep alone. Simple is better...:D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
ok, i was confused with my "Scooping" of the cue ball. when i drop the elbow i then hit the cue ball with this "upward" motion instead of level, and therefore scoop the cue ball.

right?

DCP
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Geez Mike...PLEASE REVIEW YOUR dvd's...SOON! What you're confusing with elbow drop, is the fact that your forearm was not perpendicular when the tip was at the CB. That's why your tip was dropping before you hit the ball, and why you were scooping the CB on draw shots. You dropped your elbow some on power strokes...and I showed you how to fix that too (as it is unnecessary, to achieve what you're looking for)! Remember what I told you? You will FORGET 50% of what you learn in ONE DAY...if not reviewed. Looks like THAT fact is substanciated, huh? LOL

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Scott Lee said:
gpeezy...Absolutely not! Elbow drop has nothing to do with follow through.
What it does do, is incorporate a second set of muscles...shoulder AND bicep, vs. bicep alone. Simple is better...:D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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I don't agree with that.

Maybe it is not necessary to drop elbow to follow through. I think it is certainly necessary to drop elbow to get a longer follow through on shots requiring more spin.

If you keep the elbow stiff and stationary then the shot would look forced and more like jabbing then a delivery.

I would favor the fluid delivery and allow the elbow to come in following the delivery.

what do you think?
 
MasterClass said:
I don't agree with that.

Maybe it is not necessary to drop elbow to follow through. I think it is certainly necessary to drop elbow to get a longer follow through on shots requiring more spin.

If you keep the elbow stiff and stationary then the shot would look forced and more like jabbing then a delivery.

I would favor the fluid delivery and allow the elbow to come in following the delivery.

what do you think?
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I would have to disagree. Dropping the elbow involves using the shoulder muscles, as well as the bicep. More muscle movement means more things that can go wrong. Since dropping the elbow provides no specific benefit to the outcome of the shot, imo, it is a timing issue. Pros that do it, drop AFTER the strike on the CB. Amateurs do not possess the same perfect timing, and drop at or before the strike. A pendulum swing, with no elbow drop, uses only one set of muscles, and provides the most fluid, repeatable (read: accurate) delivery of the cue possible. Here's perhaps something you may not realize. The cuetip is in contact with the CB for 1/1000th of a second. We can't even comprehend how fast that is (but as a comparison, it takes 4/1000's of a second to blink your eyes...:eek: ), and nothing you do can extend the length of time the tip is on the ball (called dwell time). So...in view of that, does it really matter how long or short your followthrough is? Nope. If you followthrough 1/16" through the CB it would be enough. However, it's difficult if not impossible to stop the cue during the swing. A pendulum swing is a very natural, easy to repeat process, that delivers the cue in a straight line. The CB just happens to get in the way in the middle of the swing...just like golf. The other benefit is that you can teach yourself minute differences in speed control much more easily, than by dropping the elbow. not jmo...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Scott Lee said:
Geez Mike...PLEASE REVIEW YOUR dvd's...SOON! What you're confusing with elbow drop, is the fact that your forearm was not perpendicular when the tip was at the CB. That's why your tip was dropping before you hit the ball, and why you were scooping the CB on draw shots. You dropped your elbow some on power strokes...and I showed you how to fix that too (as it is unnecessary, to achieve what you're looking for)! Remember what I told you? You will FORGET 50% of what you learn in ONE DAY...if not reviewed. Looks like THAT fact is substanciated, huh? LOL

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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well, now, geewilligers there folks, i guess i am confused........again. so, when i scoop is it because of the tip dropping and i am hitting it way, WAY too low? or because i am lifting it?

i mean, you cant SCOOP if you are hitting downward? you can only scoop if you are hitting upward.

DCP
 
If you keep the elbow stiff and stationary then the shot would look forced and more like jabbing then a delivery.


It wouldn't if you deliver smoothly.
Btw, I think stiff and stationary are two different things.
 
Scott Lee said:
I would have to disagree. Dropping the elbow involves using the shoulder muscles, as well as the bicep. More muscle movement means more things that can go wrong. Since dropping the elbow provides no specific benefit to the outcome of the shot, imo, it is a timing issue. Pros that do it, drop AFTER the strike on the CB. Amateurs do not possess the same perfect timing, and drop at or before the strike. A pendulum swing, with no elbow drop, uses only one set of muscles, and provides the most fluid, repeatable (read: accurate) delivery of the cue possible. Here's perhaps something you may not realize. The cuetip is in contact with the CB for 1/1000th of a second. We can't even comprehend how fast that is (but as a comparison, it takes 4/1000's of a second to blink your eyes...:eek: ), and nothing you do can extend the length of time the tip is on the ball (called dwell time). So...in view of that, does it really matter how long or short your followthrough is? Nope. If you followthrough 1/16" through the CB it would be enough. However, it's difficult if not impossible to stop the cue during the swing. A pendulum swing is a very natural, easy to repeat process, that delivers the cue in a straight line. The CB just happens to get in the way in the middle of the swing...just like golf. The other benefit is that you can teach yourself minute differences in speed control much more easily, than by dropping the elbow. not jmo...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...
The idea of extending the following was to extend the "dwell time" I do not believe that Pros who do drop their elbow do so after striking the cb ball. I think they do so while striking the cue ball. If the contact is so fast then how do we determine what we cannot see? I can feel it though but that is a personal thing and may differ with different people.

I control my cue ball by varying the acceleration of my cue thru and hence the long follow through is important. Potting is easier for me so i am willing to sacrifice a bit on the stroke to improve on my cue ball control.

In snooker, they advocate dropping the elbow to get a longer follow through when we need the power and pace over a long shot. I think there has to be some reason behind it.

I just like to add that i have not received any coaching in pool and most of what i know i learn from reading, interacting and experience. I am a snooker convert pool player. I just like to learn more and find out for myself.
 
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