Elbow dropping... innocuous or a damnable curse?

[whitey2]

Allison

For the record, IIRC, Allison is also a student of RandyG = spf.

-td

Supposedly she also has all of Bert Kinister's videos.

But I myself don't "trust" Allison. Why, you ask? In a commercial, she looks into the camera
and with a straight face, explains why she shoots with a Cuetec cue. "It all boils down to
performance.", she says. I hold the opinion that it all boils down to money in her pockets for
sponsorship.

 

[Flex]

Supposedly she also has all of Bert Kinister's videos.

But I myself don't "trust" Allison. Why, you ask? In a commercial, she looks into the camera and with a straight face, explains why she shoots with a Cuetec cue. "It all boils down to performance.", she says. I hold the opinion that it all boils down to money in her pockets for sponsorship.

Maybe the performance she's referring to means performing per her contract with Cuetec!

 

[Scott Lee]

This is very interesting.

When Mark Wilson made very specific suggestions and asked me to give them a week to ten days to kick in, one of the things he suggested was that I wanted my tip to finish not just two inches in front of where the cue ball had been, but five inches in front of it. To accomplish this, he suggested I move my stroking hand backward about two - three inches, so my forearm would be perpendicular to the cue at the moment the tip contacts the cue ball. The natural finish of the stroke would thus end about five inches in front of where the cue ball originally lay, with my stroking hand coming up and contacting my chest. These changes have really helped my consistency in stroking, and my game has improved, and everything is much more fun now. Plus, I've noticed how psychologically satisfying it is when taking a full stroke to have everything stay on line. There's a feeling when the cue takes it's full extension on these strokes that's awesome.

When you say the "natural finish" will vary from player to player, are you suggesting that what Mark recommended for me might be substantially different for another player of similar height, and so on? I'm about 5'11" and wear shirts with a 34 inch arm length.

Flex

Flex...Mark hit the nail on the head! To answer your last question...yes, it could vary significantly even with someone the same height and build, but with a longer (or shorter bridge). They might also be the same height, but a different body structure...shorter or longer arms for instance. A person's natural finish will depend on several variables...arm length, natural bridge length, and grip position on the cue. As you mentioned, the forearm should be perpendicular to the table, when the tip is at the CB.

The critical issue is making sure you're perpendicular when the tip is touching the CB. If the tip is 1-2" away from the CB, when you find your perpendicular grip position, your tip will still drop SOME (maybe only 1/8"-1/4") before making contact with CB...which could result in loss of CB control, since you'd strike in a different spot than you aimed at.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Flex]

Flex...Mark hit the nail on the head! To answer your last question...yes, it could vary significantly even with someone the same height and build, but with a longer (or shorter bridge). They might also be the same height, but a different body structure...shorter or longer arms for instance. A person's natural finish will depend on several variables...arm length, natural bridge length, and grip position on the cue. As you mentioned, the forearm should be perpendicular to the table, when the tip is at the CB.

The critical issue is making sure you're perpendicular when the tip is touching the CB. If the tip is 1-2" away from the CB, when you find your perpendicular grip position, your tip will still drop SOME (maybe only 1/8"-1/4") before making contact with CB...which could result in loss of CB control, since you'd strike in a different spot than you aimed at.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Thanks, Scott. Now, another question.

Since Mark made those recommendations, I've changed shafts on my cue and have found that I'm shooting much more accurately with an OB-1. I've also found my bridge is somewhat longer on many shots, maybe up to 11 inches or so, although I do still use shorter bridge lengths depending on the shot, english, stroke and so on. To me, it's about feel, and I vary bridge lengths often for that reason. Maybe I'm wrong to do so, but I sure play better when I make those adjustments.

As a consequence, that 5 inch follow through he had me working on is the one I'll use for many, many shots. However, I've gotten really accustomed to making sure my forearm is always perpendicular to the cue when the tip contacts the object ball.

My game has definitely gone up since putting all these various points into action.

I have no idea whether or not all those "feel" changes I've been making are responsible for the improvement, and wonder what you think about it. One other thing. Adrian Vigueira, the champion 3 cushion player, until recently was working at the Chicago Billiard Cafe, and we'd play some 9 ball from time to time, and talk about a lot of stuff. One day he told me he was playing with Jeff Carter, and afterwards Carter told him he thought he, Adrian, wasn't playing by feel, and that his game was hurt by that. Adrian told me the same thing. That I should play more by feel. I think he could very well be right, and have tried to make the mental switch and play more by feel. Are you of that school?


Thanks!

Flex

 

[td873]

Supposedly she also has all of Bert Kinister's videos.

But I myself don't "trust" Allison. Why, you ask? In a commercial, she looks into the camera
and with a straight face, explains why she shoots with a Cuetec cue. "It all boils down to
performance.", she says. I hold the opinion that it all boils down to money in her pockets for
sponsorship.

Have you seen her market Cuetech (as in Pool School - not Cuetec cues)? I think your analogy may be off target. Tiger Wood's coach has very little (if anything) to do with his sponsorships...

-td

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

Have you seen her market Cuetech? I think your analogy may be off target. Tiger Wood's coach has very little (if anything) to do with his sponsorships...

-td

i think Travis Trotter is about ready to become the new Cuetec Cue spokesperson.........

DCP

 

[Scott Lee]

Flex...Remember, when you shorten or extend your 'natural bridge length' (which is defined as where you put your hand down on the table for MOST shots), you must readjust your grip position on the back end, to remain perpendicular. Consequently, the 5" finish should be mostly the same (for YOU), regardless of the shot.

As to your other question...that's not such a simple answer. Poolplayers are kind of classified as mechanical, analytical, or "feel" players. Some have elements of all three. It's not very cut and dried. Since we use three different senses playing (touch, sound, sight), we all 'feel' something when we strike the CB. How that relates to our mental perception is often determined by our confidence in our stroke. IMO, when you are supremely confident in your ability to strike the CB exactly where you aim; you have a firmly grounded concept of speed control; and you have a repeatable setup and delivery process...you have what all of us are seeking...being able to "trust" your stroke. Then pool becomes more unconscious, and we become more able to 'fall into the zone' more frequently. Hope this answers your question.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Thanks, Scott. Now, another question.

Since Mark made those recommendations, I've changed shafts on my cue and have found that I'm shooting much more accurately with an OB-1. I've also found my bridge is somewhat longer on many shots, maybe up to 11 inches or so, although I do still use shorter bridge lengths depending on the shot, english, stroke and so on. To me, it's about feel, and I vary bridge lengths often for that reason. Maybe I'm wrong to do so, but I sure play better when I make those adjustments.

As a consequence, that 5 inch follow through he had me working on is the one I'll use for many, many shots. However, I've gotten really accustomed to making sure my forearm is always perpendicular to the cue when the tip contacts the object ball.

My game has definitely gone up since putting all these various points into action.

I have no idea whether or not all those "feel" changes I've been making are responsible for the improvement, and wonder what you think about it. One other thing. Adrian Vigueira, the champion 3 cushion player, until recently was working at the Chicago Billiard Cafe, and we'd play some 9 ball from time to time, and talk about a lot of stuff. One day he told me he was playing with Jeff Carter, and afterwards Carter told him he thought he, Adrian, wasn't playing by feel, and that his game was hurt by that. Adrian told me the same thing. That I should play more by feel. I think he could very well be right, and have tried to make the mental switch and play more by feel. Are you of that school?


Thanks!

Flex

 

[Flex]

Flex...Remember, when you shorten or extend your 'natural bridge length' (which is defined as where you put your hand down on the table for MOST shots), you must readjust your grip position on the back end, to remain perpendicular. Consequently, the 5" finish should be mostly the same (for YOU), regardless of the shot.

As to your other question...that's not such a simple answer. Poolplayers are kind of classified as mechanical, analytical, or "feel" players. Some have elements of all three. It's not very cut and dried. Since we use three different senses playing (touch, sound, sight), we all 'feel' something when we strike the CB. How that relates to our mental perception is often determined by our confidence in our stroke. IMO, when you are supremely confident in your ability to strike the CB exactly where you aim; you have a firmly grounded concept of speed control; and you have a repeatable setup and delivery process...you have what all of us are seeking...being able to "trust" your stroke. Then pool becomes more unconscious, and we become more able to 'fall into the zone' more frequently. Hope this answers your question.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

It sure did, thanks.

And yes, depending on the bridge length, I adjust my hand position on the butt to keep it perpendicular to the shaft when the tip contacts the cue ball. Or at least, I think I do! (I don't always look back to check, of course.) In any case, it's working.

Flex

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

ok, so, now, why is it that some players like Allison and Romford Slim have their elbow almost pointed upward? look at the shot of her on the AZ Billiards home page and you will see what i am referring too.

DCP

 

[Flex]

ok, so, now, why is it that some players like Allison and Romford Slim have their elbow almost pointed upward? look at the shot of her on the AZ Billiards home page and you will see what i am referring too.

DCP

I just checked it out and seems to me that her cue is jacked up a bit, hence the elevated elbow.

 

[snooky]

Elbow drop relative to angle of cue

Most snooker players will not have the cue parallel to the table so dropping the elbow allows for the cue to follow through along the line of the shot.

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

this is pretty much what i am talking about. its pics #32 and #34.

http://propoolvideo.com/image-galleries/predator-world-14.1-championship.html

DCP

 

[Flex]

this is pretty much what i am talking about. its pics #32 and #34.

http://propoolvideo.com/image-galleries/predator-world-14.1-championship.html

DCP

Her forearm is definitely not perpendicular to the line of the cue when it the tip touches the cue ball. Mark Wilson told me that it is more accurate to have the hand a bit forward on the cue, as her's is, but that power will be diminished.

Flex

 

[PKM]

ok, so, now, why is it that some players like Allison and Romford Slim have their elbow almost pointed upward? look at the shot of her on the AZ Billiards home page and you will see what i am referring too.

DCP

this is pretty much what i am talking about. its pics #32 and #34.

http://propoolvideo.com/image-galleries/predator-world-14.1-championship.html

DCP

You can see in that pic of Jasmin that if she didn't have her elbow pointing up, she wouldn't have room for a proper stroke (it appears that she drops her elbow drop at the end but that doesn't change her initial position). I think that's typical for most body types.

 

[crosseyedjoe]

Her forearm is definitely not perpendicular to the line of the cue when it the tip touches the cue ball. Mark Wilson told me that it is more accurate to have the hand a bit forward on the cue, as her's is, but that power will be diminished.

Flex

I like how the Mexican does it, "soft and smooth like touching a woman," from the guy who thought me how to play pool. He used to be a professional pool player in Mexico.

His favorite phrase "why hit so hard?"

 

[Flex]

I like how the Mexican does it, "soft and smooth like touching a woman," from the guy who thought me how to play pool. He used to be a professional pool player in Mexico.

He favorite phrase "why hit so hard?"

It could well be that when facing a tough shot, where missing it is very easy to do, that choking up a very small bit on the butt, thus limiting the length of the stroke and followthrough, and where cinching the ball is the most important thing to do, that that slightly shortened and more compact stroke may actually improve by some small amount the chance that the shot will be made and not missed.

That's a good question for the experts and stroke gurus...

Flex

 

[cuetechasaurus]

If you drop your elbow just two or so inches, there is absoloutely nothing wrong with it IMHO, so long as your shoulder doesn't drop with it. If you drop your elbow any more than two or three inches, it's impossible for the shoulder NOT to move or drop for most people.

 

[Flex]

Don't you just love that shoveling motion that 1/2 a second later magically transforms the lowly cueball into a ballistic missile threatening everyone in its path??

Just kidding.

Actually, I saw this one fellow slam shovel and bounce the cue ball when he broke and almost kill someone. It simply whizzed right by this guy's head, who turned white as a sheet when he realized what happened. Fortunately nobody was hurt.

Flex

 

[catscradle]

I reluctantly voted for the 'just a little bit' only because it would seem that a slight elbow drop after contact will not impede stroke execution. However, I am leaning closer and closer to the SPF school. A session with Tony Robles has really made me aware of the perils of a collapsing elbow. It clearly causes an inadvertent raising of the tip and it ruins an otherwise good stroke.

What he said, except substitute "Scott Lee" for "Tony Robles".

 

[catscradle]

I would have to disagree. Dropping the elbow involves using the shoulder muscles, as well as the bicep. More muscle movement means more things that can go wrong. Since dropping the elbow provides no specific benefit to the outcome of the shot, imo, it is a timing issue. Pros that do it, drop AFTER the strike on the CB. Amateurs do not possess the same perfect timing, and drop at or before the strike. A pendulum swing, with no elbow drop, uses only one set of muscles, and provides the most fluid, repeatable (read: accurate) delivery of the cue possible. Here's perhaps something you may not realize. The cuetip is in contact with the CB for 1/1000th of a second. We can't even comprehend how fast that is (but as a comparison, it takes 4/1000's of a second to blink your eyes... ), and nothing you do can extend the length of time the tip is on the ball (called dwell time). So...in view of that, does it really matter how long or short your followthrough is? Nope. If you followthrough 1/16" through the CB it would be enough. However, it's difficult if not impossible to stop the cue during the swing. A pendulum swing is a very natural, easy to repeat process, that delivers the cue in a straight line. The CB just happens to get in the way in the middle of the swing...just like golf. The other benefit is that you can teach yourself minute differences in speed control much more easily, than by dropping the elbow. not jmo...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott,
How long or short your follow through is does matter in that it is a reflection of what came before cue ball strike. It is a symptom of whether things were right or wrong before it. So the correct follow through is that which results from a straight, repeatable stroke WITHOUT elbow drop.
I think I learned something in our session.