Elbow dropping... innocuous or a damnable curse?

[elite1206]

I just checked with my coach again regarding this issue. 1 thing he highlighted is really important: What exactly is the definition of dropping the elbow?

His definition of dropping elbow is to drop the elbow without dropping your shoulder in order to ensure a smooth follow through.

Some players actually drop their shoulders when they drop their elbow, resulting in excessive muscle movement and hence the unnecessary movement resulting in errors in the stroke.

According to him, it is very important to drop your elbow, this allows you to attain consistency in your stroke and follow through. In fact, I do notice a lot of Pro players do drop their elbow.

 

[Boro Nut]

On power shots, just about every snooker player drops the elbow. Allison (though far from a snooker player anymore) is no exception.

Even Robles will drop his elbow on occassion, but he seems to hold that elbow still on most power shots.

Fred

I agree Fred. Snooker players tend to strive for piston strokes. Watch Shaun Murphy. He looks like he's cheating by using a greased trammel. You can't not drop the elbow if you power through the cue ball. Only on close nips and stuns will the elbow stay relatively fixed.

For beginners I think controlling the final backswing is as much of a problem as (and probably the cause of) a wonky follow through. You can lose cue allignment all too easilly if you overextend backwards, which they tend to do. I was always taught to keep it compact, and it works.

Boro Nut

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

I just checked with my coach again regarding this issue. 1 thing he highlighted is really important: What exactly is the definition of dropping the elbow?

His definition of dropping elbow is to drop the elbow without dropping your shoulder in order to ensure a smooth follow through.

Some players actually drop their shoulders when they drop their elbow, resulting in excessive muscle movement and hence the unnecessary movement resulting in errors in the stroke.

According to him, it is very important to drop your elbow, this allows you to attain consistency in your stroke and follow through. In fact, I do notice a lot of Pro players do drop their elbow.

really?

hmmmmm............on one hand we have some of the finest instructors in the country saying to not drop the elbow (or very little at the most). on the other hand, some instructors are advocating that not only is it ok, but even desirable, perhaps?



DCP

 

[Bob Jewett]

really?

hmmmmm............on one hand we have some of the finest instructors in the country saying to not drop the elbow (or very little at the most). on the other hand, some instructors are advocating that not only is it ok, but even desirable, perhaps?...

Absolutely. And it is left to you, the confused student, to figure out what's Shinola and what's the other stuff. You also have the bizarre fact that one of the best players in the country (or ex-players) has said in print that the object ball doesn't throw, although it is easy to show that it does (by up to 6 degrees, which is a lot) and that in the process some side spin gets transferred to the object ball.

Sorry, DCP, but you have to figure out on your own who, as Danny McGoorty would have said, is pouring piss in your ear. And not just at pool

 

[Scott Lee]

really?

hmmmmm............on one hand we have some of the finest instructors in the country saying to not drop the elbow (or very little at the most). on the other hand, some instructors are advocating that not only is it ok, but even desirable, perhaps?



DCP

Mike...It can be explained very easily...and I've said it before. Most students come to pool school, or seek out instructors like myself, Randyg, Stan Shuffet, pooltcher, Denny Stewart, and MANY other qualified instructors (mostly SPF educated) because they want to learn what they DON'T know. Until then you simply don't know what you don't know (thanks Oz)!...and that goes for some instructor/coaches too!

Like Bob Jewett said, it's up to you to believe me or not. I am NOT, however, "pissing in your ear", as Bob so eloquently pointed out! An elbow drop is not required, nor necessarily desired, for a natural finish (read: followthrough) of one's stroke . Most players who learn a pinned elbow/pendulum swing will simply not invest the necessary time to make it a habit (where it REPLACES their "old comfortable way"). Why, you ask? Because until the new habit replaces the old habit, you probably will not get 'perfect' positive results with the new habit...thus justifying (in many players minds) going back to my "old" way, which gets the job done! Remember the 'riding the bike' analogy? It is exactly like that. When this type of delivery process truly becomes a habit, it's like you never played any other way. jmo

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

! Most players who learn a pinned elbow/pendulum swing will simply not invest the necessary time to make it a habit (where it REPLACES) their "old comfortable way"). Remember the 'riding the bike' analogy? It is exactly like that. When this type of delivery process truly becomes a habit, it's like you never played any other way. jmo

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

i have noticed through the use of the mirror i just bought that i am not dropping my elbow nearly as much anymore. perhaps still some on the draw shots.

but, i put a quarter on my elbow the other day and it stayed there on a draw shot. assume thats good..........

DCP

 

[mikepage]

Absolutely. And it is left to you, the confused student, to figure out what's Shinola and what's the other stuff. You also have the bizarre fact that one of the best players in the country (or ex-players) has said in print that the object ball doesn't throw, although it is easy to show that it does (by up to 6 degrees, which is a lot) and that in the process some side spin gets transferred to the object ball.

Sorry, DCP, but you have to figure out on your own who, as Danny McGoorty would have said, is pouring piss in your ear. And not just at pool

...

You gotta walk that lonesome valley
You gotta walk it by yourself
Oh there ain't no one gonna walk it with you
You gotta walk that lonesome valley by yourself

 

[Pinocchio]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Flex has truly opened a can of worms an the controversy rages on. Scott no need to get excited when people don't agree with you. There are many different stances, alignment, head position that players use. Over the last 10 yrs. the two most dominate plays in the world are hardly anything but conventional. That being The great Efrin an the Duchess. Looks like to me its whatever works for you. I have never said pool-school is a bad thing. I think if anyone went to pool-school they would have to benefit from it. Oh! I have a new bowling ball theory an currently testing it on the bar box. When I have all data completed I will post results.
Respectfully
Pinocchio

 

[Scott Lee]

Scott no need to get excited when people don't agree with you.

Pinocchio

Ben...I only get "excited" when someone implies that I'm "full of sh*t"...or in this case "pouring piss in someone's ear"! You're quite correct in noting that there are many ways to achieve successful results. The REAL question is whether or not you want to try to learn something that is successful and repeatable, or emulate something some pros have learned through YEARS of trial and error. Draw your own conclusions, and make your own decision!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[crosseyedjoe]

I don't know Scott Lee but I do know Randy G. and respect his opinions greatly. However, I must point out the obvious. No matter what anyone says it is impossible to play pool while keeping your elbow from moving. Tony and Santos are probably opposite extremes. Santos has as much work or more on his stroke as anybody, including Efren, in the game. His stroke is exactly like Efren's, is it not? Tony tries to be more compact. Their elbow movements are almost identical.

Therefore the point of this argument, imo, should be whether or not it is advisable to TRY to keep the elbow and shoulder from moving, since it is quite impossible to stop it from moving.

unknownpro

Kuo Po-Cheng (another great Taiwanese player/coach) actually puts it simply, it's the fluidity of the stroke that counts more. This explains why Efren, Santos and Davis achieve such accuracy even with their "flowery" stroke. Never understimate the power of follow thru.

Pendulum swing is a very teachable form of fluid stroke; however like what other people and I suspect, pendulum swing might not feel natural to every player. I think it should be the basis but not the end product. Ever wonder how Efren can do a "back-hand" English, I can tell you that's not from a pendulum swing.

 

[randyg]

WOW......Tastes great, less filling. Makes me piss in someones ear! (dear BOB)

There are three types of elbow droppers:

1. Before they strike the cueball (if they can at all)
2. During impact with the cueball (or so they think)
3. After cueball leaves the cue tip (that so many players do)

Play 40 hours a week and you can stand on your head and play great.

Play a couple of hours a week and let your good mechanics carry you through the games.

Once again, any shot that you have to drop your elbow on, I can find two players that will do it with a pendulum stroke.....SPF=randyg

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

WOW......Tastes great, less filling. Makes me piss in someones ear! (dear BOB)

There are three types of elbow droppers:

1. Before they strike the cueball (if they can at all)
2. During impact with the cueball (or so they think)
3. After cueball leaves the cue tip (that so many players do)

Play 40 hours a week and you can stand on your head and play great.

Play a couple of hours a week and let your good mechanics carry you through the games.

Once again, any shot that you have to drop your elbow on, I can find two players that will do it with a pendulum stroke.....SPF=randyg

me and who else?

DCP

 

[mikepage]

WOW......Tastes great, less filling. Makes me piss in someones ear! (dear BOB)

Hey Scott and Randy, Let's review

somebody said,

According to him (the guy's coach) , it is very important to drop your elbow, this allows you to attain consistency in your stroke and follow through.

and then another person replied,

really?

hmmmmm............on one hand we have some of the finest instructors in the country saying to not drop the elbow (or very little at the most). on the other hand, some instructors are advocating that not only is it ok, but even desirable, perhaps?

To which Bob replied,

Absolutely. And it is left to you, the confused student, to figure out what's Shinola and what's the other stuff. You also have the bizarre fact that one of the best players in the country (or ex-players) has said in print that the object ball doesn't throw, although it is easy to show that it does (by up to 6 degrees, which is a lot) and that in the process some side spin gets transferred to the object ball.

Sorry, DCP, but you have to figure out on your own who, as Danny McGoorty would have said, is pouring piss in your ear. And not just at pool

Here's my interpretation. It's clear Bob thinks MS has pissed in a lot of ears (and he would be right). Beyond that, he just pointing out that when a student (and we're ALL students) gets conflicting advice, he must evaluate the claims and evaluate the support for the claims and, as Joey would point out, find his own path to salvation. You guys are being a little sensitive, imo.

There are three types of elbow droppers:

1. Before they strike the cueball (if they can at all)
2. During impact with the cueball (or so they think)

I haven't read all the posts here. Has anybody advocated dropping the elbow at or before impact?

3. After cueball leaves the cue tip (that so many players do)

Play 40 hours a week and you can stand on your head and play great.

Play a couple of hours a week and let your good mechanics carry you through the games.

Once again, any shot that you have to drop your elbow on, I can find two players that will do it with a pendulum stroke.....SPF=randyg

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I haven't read all the posts here. Has anybody advocated dropping the elbow at or before impact?

I don't think anyone here is advocating it, but I think it's interesting to note that some very good players, including Loree Jon and Jeremy Jones and a fair number of professional snooker players, both drop and raise their elbows on the final stroke. That's the only way you can get the cue to move like a piston (as opposed to a pendulum). Some players evidently have perfected it. The goal is the same as for the pendulum stroke, I think, and that's to return the tip to the point on the cue ball on the final stroke that was addressed during the "set" or the warm-up strokes. (For more on that, there are two articles on elbows at http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html -- See Feb and Mar of 2004.

As for whether someone wonders whether their ears have been abused, I think each person needs to determine for themselves what is wheat and what is chaff. If you look at the current political messes in the US -- and I'm not taking sides there either -- it's clear that most people are not ending up with Shinola. They need to think a little more.

 

[Klopek]

0000000000

 

[randyg]

Fair enough! Done

Thanks to all and sorry to all.....SPF=randyg

 

[cuekev]

All I can say is that the pendulum stroke and the static positions that are taught at Pool School have helped my game. When you have no method behind your madness it is difficult to correct your game when something is wrong. PS teaches you the method along with ways to analyze your stroke. Some of these ways are not teaching the movement of the stroke but the static positions. I left PS encouraged but not totally sold. I believe you need to take what is taught at there as a total system. I tried to incorporate parts into my game and had only partial success. It has been only lately that it is fitting together all so well. I feel PS is well worth the money. Are you listening Scott?

Thanks again Randy and Scott!

 

[Scott Lee]

the essential crux of it all...nice job!

tap, tap, tap!

So, here we are. Two different camps- the don't drops, and the o.k. to drops. Many points have been made on both sides, but it looks like the trees are getting lost for the forest.

So, we have to ask ourselves- why are most instructors advocating not to drop the elbow, when so many good players do? If you stop and think about it for a minute, the answer becomes quite obvious.

What are the instructors doing? They are TEACHING. IMHO, any instructor that would say you can stoke it any way you want to, as long as you are consitent with it, should NOT be an instructor. Because what they are actually saying is -go spend 5 or 10 years to be consistent. They aren't teaching you anything.

We have already seen in this thread how little time the tip is on the cueball. (Although, for some, seeing isn't believing) So what we are left with, is how to accurately and repeatedly get the tip to the cueball in as little training as possible.

We could be like the top players all you have been mentioning, who didn't know about the pendulum stroke, and shoot thousands upon thousands of balls to figure out what works for each person. OR we can re-create in the body what a simple machine to do the task would do. Which, surprise, happens to be the pendulum stroke. Zero elbow movement.

Now, being human, and not machines, can we duplicate this simple movement EVERY time? Not likely. BUT- that is what we should strive for. Depending on our stance at the table--stretched out or not, the elbow may drop a little on some shots. But the less it drops, the less can go wrong with the delivery to that precise spot we are trying to hit.

The less drop, the more repeatable it becomes. The more repeatable, the more accurate. And the less time it takes to learn.

Instructors are not trying to make robots out of everybody. It can't be done. What we ARE trying to do, is show the fastest, most accurate, most repeatable way to become very consistent. Which is at the core of becoming good in this game.

Each person is different. We have all levels of talent on this forum. Are we advocating that Earl S. should change his stroke? Of course not. But take a good long look at Buddy Hall. If you have ever really tried to learn from him (in person, books, or tapes) you will have come away with something very important. -- The clock method. The only way this works is to consistently hit the cueball where you intended to. This requires repeatability. How do you teach repeatability? By the quickest, easiest, way possible. Which just so happens to be the pendulum stroke.

Will the elbow ever drop? Sure it will. But the whole idea is for it not to drop. When you start to get lazy, you will notice your elbow dropping. This is one of the first signs that your mechanics are starting to slip, and you better get them back in line or other problems will soon develop.

This has turned out a lot longer than intended. But I hope you get my point. This thread has been starting to get a little silly- 'but his elbow drops an inch, and he's good'. Start looking for the trees. THEN you will see the forest.

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

glad i didnt start this thread. i would have been crucified big time if i would have, might have even got banned. and i know everyone would hate that..........

DCP