Eliminating Ball in Hand

This really is a good topic. In the old days, a tournament was just an excuse to get players together so they could match up. The tournament was a side show to what really mattered. First place was a grand. In the side room was Flyboy and Clyde forfeiting their matches while they play $2000 one-hole. The tournament was one-foul and all the Nine-Ball action was push-out. Everyone understood why the tournament had to be one-foul. Over time, things changed. The action dried up. The only thing left was tournament one-foul (Texas Express).

Here is my question: What does one-foul do to the game? Is ducking too heavily rewarded with a ball-in-hand?
 
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CreeDo said:
- So if I safe, and they miss their kick, I just play it wherever it ends up.

- What if it ends up behind another ball, screwing me over?
In fact, what if the other guy intentionally puts the cue ball there, or puts it somewhere where
the shot is unmakeable?

- Well then maybe we make a rule where I can pass it back, if I don't like where it ended up.

- Congratulations, you just reinvented 2-foul rollout 9ball?? :grin:


Bear in mind that Ball in Hand was invented to solve a specific problem.
The problem being that 9-ball is a slower game under older 2-foul rules.
They were invented for a specific tournament or maybe a specific tour.

And yet, decades later, Texas Express rules are still popular
long after that tournament or tour died out.
So maybe ball in hand isn't a problem that anyone wants solved?
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The Jansco Brothers and Weenie Beenie came up with the 1 foul rules to speed up tournment play only! Jansco wanted to get the tourney over so the gamblin could begin....they had very few tables at johnston city room. Beenie wanted to run 3 sessions a day to speed up the tourney and make more money. All they had to do was shorten the races to 7 and would have achieved the same result,,,,,tourneys in 60's and 70's were race to 11. 1 foul was NEVER intended to be 'The rules of 9 ball'. Players under 35 never played 2 foul pushout. They never got to see what a much better game it is.
I was hoping TAR would put on a pushout match between two players that know how to play pushout. But looks like TAR is done much like 'pro' pool. Too bad.
Bank pool....yea...lol
 
Gunn_Slinger said:
1 foul was NEVER intended to be 'The rules of 9 ball'. Players under 35 never played 2 foul pushout. They never got to see what a much better game it is.
I was hoping TAR would put on a pushout match between two players that know how to play pushout. But looks like TAR is done much like 'pro' pool. Too bad.
Bank pool....yea...lol
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I do get that... 1-foul was just supposed to be a temporary thing, and wasn't intended to be
"here's how 9-ball is played from now on".

But for some reason it caught on. I mean, apparently it caught on HUGE. Like wildfire.

Why is that?
I mean, it's not like somewhere between November 1967 and December 1967,
ALL the guys who grew up on 2-foul retired or died, and by 1968 every 9-baller on earth
was only aware of texas express rules.

At some point, guys who grew up playing 2-foul, must have consciously decided to switch to 1-foul.

My theory to explain this is that they found it was simply more fun to make 9b
a faster, luckier game where one mistake ends the racks.
 
FranCrimi said:
I was around when the rules were changed to BIH. It was necessary because tournaments were dragging on and on for hours and sometimes even days longer than scheduled. Spectators were falling asleep in the stands. Players were dropping out because they had to leave.

9 Ball was originally a gambling game. When it's just two players matching up, it's a different story, but when you are running a tournament with time constraints, it's necessary to keep the tournament moving along.
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I don't remember it this way. In the men's division players would make some fantastic shots or at least try. I didn't see much pushing out to play another safe.
 
CreeDo said:
I do get that... 1-foul was just supposed to be a temporary thing, and wasn't intended to be
"here's how 9-ball is played from now on".

But for some reason it caught on. I mean, apparently it caught on HUGE. Like wildfire.

Why is that?
I mean, it's not like somewhere between November 1967 and December 1967,
ALL the guys who grew up on 2-foul retired or died, and by 1968 every 9-baller on earth
was only aware of texas express rules.

At some point, guys who grew up playing 2-foul, must have consciously decided to switch to 1-foul.

My theory to explain this is that they found it was simply more fun to make 9b
a faster, luckier game where one mistake ends the racks.
Click to expand...

I'm still of the opinion that most people thought they had more of a chance to win playing 1 foul than they ever would have playing 2 foul. 1 foul is much easier and simpler. There is not any where near as much thinking in 1 foul. 1 foul is much more tactical where 2 foul is more strategic, at least to my way of thinking.
 
Pushout said:
I'm still of the opinion that most people thought they had more of a chance to win playing 1 foul than they ever would have playing 2 foul. 1 foul is much easier and simpler. There is not any where near as much thinking in 1 foul. 1 foul is much more tactical where 2 foul is more strategic, at least to my way of thinking.
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:lol:


Where I lived it was a way to suck in the straight pool players and gamble in nine ball.

Wow...what a mistake! Those guys had us kicking at everything. I hated playing a straight pool player in nine ball!:shocked2:
 
poolguy4u said:
:lol:


Where I lived it was a way to suck in the straight pool players and gamble in nine ball.

Wow...what a mistake! Those guys had us kicking at everything. I hated playing a straight pool player in nine ball!:shocked2:
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I've said for years and continue to say that Straight Pool helps all other games. A great many pros agree with that also.
 
CreeDo said:
I do get that... 1-foul was just supposed to be a temporary thing, and wasn't intended to be
"here's how 9-ball is played from now on".

But for some reason it caught on. I mean, apparently it caught on HUGE. Like wildfire.

Why is that?
I mean, it's not like somewhere between November 1967 and December 1967,
ALL the guys who grew up on 2-foul retired or died, and by 1968 every 9-baller on earth
was only aware of texas express rules.

At some point, guys who grew up playing 2-foul, must have consciously decided to switch to 1-foul.

My theory to explain this is that they found it was simply more fun to make 9b
a faster, luckier game where one mistake ends the racks.
Click to expand...
It was when Randy G, John M and Robin A came up with the Texas express rules in the late 80s early 90s that it really caught on. They traveled and did tourneys and it just spread as a quicker way to run a tournament with some twists to the game. Other promoters adopted it when the McDermott tour was going.
Chuck
 
Ball in hand is too big (for a single foul). It warps the game. It changes strategies. I think it takes something away from the game. Given a choice, players try to get the BIH (or try to 3-foul) rather than try to get out. It is just too easy to get (in Texas Express). A player can't protect his money either. I think Nine-Ball could be more entertaining and more strategic with some minor changes. Key is divising something that is simple and moves the game along. I do know that push-out is far too slow.

I have tried a few different ideas over the last couple of months. Nothing works yet.
 
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Paul Schofield said:
Ball in hand is too big (for a single foul). It warps the game. It changes strategies. I think it takes something away from the game. Given a choice, players try to get the BIH (or try to 3-foul) rather than try to get out. It is just too easy to get (in Texas Express). A player can't protect his money either. I think Nine-Ball could be more entertaining and more strategic with some minor changes. Key is divising something that is simple and moves the game along. I do know that push-out is far too slow.

I have tried a few different ideas over the last couple of months. Nothing works yet.
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Have you tried the "spot shot" rule that they had in Filipino rotation that they played during the last TAR match.
 
krupa said:
Have you tried the "spot shot" rule that they had in Filipino rotation that they played during the last TAR match.
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Can you explain what it was?


steveharn asks: Would being able to pass the shot back to your opponent do away with BIH?:

There is no doulbt that this is fairer but players don't like it. They got to like it too.
 
Paul Schofield said:
Can you explain what it was?


steveharn asks: Would being able to pass the shot back to your opponent do away with BIH?:

There is no doulbt that this is fairer but players don't like it. They got to like it too.
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My understanding (and there may be some edge cases that I missed) is simply that if you cannot hit the OB directly, you have the option of spotting the OB and giving your opponent BIH behind the line; essentially making him shoot a spot-shot.
 
Bih forces you to improve your kicks. That is the one thing that makes short rack rotation games interesting and taking that away would be like taking multiple rack runs out of straight pool.
 
krupa said:
My understanding (and there may be some edge cases that I missed) is simply that if you cannot hit the OB directly, you have the option of spotting the OB and giving your opponent BIH behind the line; essentially making him shoot a spot-shot.
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How did it go? How did everyone like it?
 
Paul Schofield said:
How did it go? How did everyone like it?
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I don't really know. I thought it was an interesting "twist." With 9-ball though, it would be different since the table is more empty. With 15 balls on the table, there's some strategy to when to make the opponent shoot the stop shot. It would definitely be different with 9-ball.

You had said that you tried some different ideas, I was just wondering if you had tried this one.
 
Masayoshi said:
Bih forces you to improve your kicks. That is the one thing that makes short rack rotation games interesting and taking that away would be like taking multiple rack runs out of straight pool.
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Eliminating the need to kick solves that problem.



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I don't think that Texas Express is terrible. I think we could do better. If there is a way to replace it with a set of rules that makes the game more strategic, faster, more fun, and requires more skill, it would be a good thing.

I grew up with push out and I liked all the options and the fact that I could protect my money. I also realize that it is too slow and will never come back in it's old form.
 
Oh stop it! Didn't even read first xxx pages - didn't need to. Stop getting mad at people playing you safe and not being able to hittin it and then running out. Just saying. I grew up with this part of the game I knew and loved.
 
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