elmers glue

A

accdealer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i did a quick search for elmers and didn't find the answer. i know a very reputable cue maker who exclusively uses white elmers for putting on tips. super glues obviously harden and having this brittle substance in between a shaft and a tip just makes no sense. anybody else use elmers for tips? i know a lot of people use epoxy, but i've literally watched this guy do a tip in 10 mins with elmers.


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accdealer said:
i did a quick search for elmers and didn't find the answer. i know a very reputable cue maker who exclusively uses white elmers for putting on tips. super glues obviously harden and having this brittle substance in between a shaft and a tip just makes no sense. anybody else use elmers for tips? i know a lot of people use epoxy, but i've literally watched this guy do a tip in 10 mins with elmers.


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I wouldn't even consider elmers. Just doesn't have the bonding strength to suit me. Loctite Gel is the nuts as far as I'm concerned and epoxy is overkill. IMO
 
Elmer's sticks to leather and WOOD really well.
If the ferrule is capped, I would be concerned about the tip popping .

A lot of people use EPOXY for leather tips ?
I've used melamine and Titebond glues 3 for tips. But, I overnighted them.

Super glue will stick to leather and the surface a lot longer than most tips' lifespan.
 
Not all super glues harden to a rigid brittleness. Only the lowest quality, cheapest ones get brittle at all. If you ever wonder if it will stick to leather, just put some on your finger tip & touch it to another finger tip. Leather = skin. The leather is dry so it doesn't cure quite as rapidly as your fingers, but it will cure every bit as solid. I apply glue to the tip then lick my thumb and wipe it on the ferrule to moisten it. The glue cures virtually immediately when the tip hits the ferrule. I have done a tip or two in my time so it's pretty routine and I'm pretty good at putting it center, but if you aren't as confident then you may want to forego the wetting.

As for Elmer's white glue, I wouldn't dismiss it without giving it an honest effort first. I use it for ferrule installs and it holds quite well. I see no reason it wouldn't work for tips, but don't see how it could possibly outperform super glue.
 
thanks for all the input, and please keep it coming.

yes, perhaps i misread about the epoxy for tips.

i've used some kind of gel forever with the willard tipping machine, just bought a repair lathe from midamerica and figured let me see if i can get everyone's opinion. i wouldn't believe the elmers if i didn't watch it with my own 2 eyes and if i wasn't playing with the cue for the last 2 months.


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Elmers wood glue was fairly standard practice in the 70's and early 80's for tips getting glued on fiber ferrules with wood tenons. It bonded pretty good to those. Cement glues similar to model car glues were also popular then. Super glues got to being used by the mobile pro shops as they needed something that dried quick. When I started doing tournaments with my portable lathe set up in the late 80s, some pro caliper players told me they did not like super glued tips as they felt it changed the hit.
 
I've not used epoxy or any type of cyno glues on my tips and ferrules for over 15 years.
Can't say I remember one complaint of a ferrule or tip popping off.
 
cueman said:
Elmers wood glue was fairly standard practice in the 70's and early 80's for tips getting glued on fiber ferrules with wood tenons. It bonded pretty good to those. Cement glues similar to model car glues were also popular then. Super glues got to being used by the mobile pro shops as they needed something that dried quick. When I started doing tournaments with my portable lathe set up in the late 80s, some pro caliper players told me they did not like super glued tips as they felt it changed the hit.
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I used to always use epoxy when I first started tipping cues. I switched to super glue when it first started becoming popular and I think some of the earlier cheap super glues hit "harder" than epoxy. I definitely think it played a bit different until you got used to it.
 
Unless you're using thin CA that soaks deep into the tip & hardens it, I can't see any logical reason why the type of adhesive would make any difference in hit. Either the tip stays on or it doesn't. Tips are pressed on snug, so the layer of adhesive will be incredibly thin. It's safe to say there's leather contacting ferrule/wood.
 
accdealer said:
i did a quick search for elmers and didn't find the answer. i know a very reputable cue maker who exclusively uses white elmers for putting on tips. super glues obviously harden and having this brittle substance in between a shaft and a tip just makes no sense. anybody else use elmers for tips? i know a lot of people use epoxy, but i've literally watched this guy do a tip in 10 mins with elmers.


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Depends on the ferrule, but Elmers White technically should be capable, but it's not a fast or particularly easy process. And to do in 10 minutes.... I guess that must be possible.

Here's one technique, which I don't mind sharing because no cue mechanic should consider it, since there's no advantage to using Elmer's but there are plenty of disadvantages.

Elmer's White is a water-based glue. So, the water has to evaporate, which is the curing mechanism.

Sand both surfaces flat.
Put Elmers on both surfaces
Wait.
Wait.
Wait.
Wait.

What are you waiting for? For enough water to evaporate so that the Elmer's glue is stiff. I have literally waited for an hour before bonding parts together.

When the glue is stiff enough (I check with a toothpick), push the parts together. The squeezed out glue should not drool. If it does, it's going to be a long night.

Rubberband it, and leave it for two days.

If this guy does it in ten minutes, color me surprised ,unless he's doing it under a heat lamp.


Anyone else?
 
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Cornerman said:
If this guy does it in ten minutes, color me surprised ,unless he's doing it under a heat lamp.


Anyone else?
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Not me. My thoughts are on par with yours. Seems it would be more hassle than it's worth, and I fail to see how it could be done in ten minutes. I couldn't imagine any possible advantage to using Elmer's white glue, unless Elmer's has a white wood glue like Gorilla and Tite-Bond. As I understand the OP though, it's the glue-all kinda like school glue.

Seeing as how you're an expert of sorts in adhesion, would you mind offering some thoughts on advantages/disadvantages with various glues? CA, epoxy, wood glue, rubber cement, and apparently white glue are what folks use.
 
qbilder said:
Seeing as how you're an expert of sorts in adhesion, would you mind offering some thoughts on advantages/disadvantages with various glues? CA, epoxy, wood glue, rubber cement, and apparently white glue are what folks use.
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Way too long. I beg everyone to skip this.

I'm fortunate to work with chemical engineers and material scientists that have educated me on adhesion over the years. So I stand on the shoulders of giants, so to speak.

I could write a book on adhesion, but it's been done, and a post wouldn't do it justice. That being said, each glue can be characterized in these layman terms:

How it sticks to a particular material (adhesion)
How it reacts to a substrate (melting, crazing, etc)
How it holds itself (cohesion)
how and how long it sets (green strength)
How and how long it cures (cure time)
how strong it is on its own (shear and tensile/compression)
how tough it is (brittle vs flexible)
How it cleans up

CA is moisture cured and is a polymer, so not only does it cure in the presence of moisture, but it also will molecular chain up to materials. So if a substrate has moisture (e.g., Nylon), it will bond, and bond well.

CA cures rapidly, so its use is limited by time. Don't go laminating big board with it.

By itself, CA has good compression/tensile strength. Shear is decent.

However' on its own, standard CA isn't tough. It doesn't do well with dynamic loading.

And CA sucks to clean up. Acetone will work, but there's safety considerations.

So with that simple evaluation in mind, you can start to eliminate applications: paper maché, large area lamination of boards or leather, children's kindergarten projects....

Note: standard off-the-shelf CA is about what most people ever can get. CA blends are available in large range of strengths and toughness. I'm not sure how easily a single cuemaker or even a conglomerate of cuemakers can get these. Some of these get pretty pricey, since they're boutique.

Anyways, that's the simple thoughts on any adhesive. Each bonding application gets its own unique look at requirements, substrate, strengths, environment, etc. What will work for one substrate can be detrimental to another. I suppose an overview of what all is in a technical data sheet is helpful. Most engineers (including me) have no idea what some of those properties and characteristics mean in the real world.

And yes, sealed vessels going into cargo holds and going into lower pressure altitudes is a very standard, 101 consideration for adhesive requirements, in case anyone needed that education from me. I'v mentored many junior engineers on this very subject.

And yes, there's a ton more that again would take a book to write down (storage, preparation, application/dispensing, surface energy, joint design, tolerances, theory of adhesion, blah blah...)

Freddie <~~~ sticking it
 
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^ Thanks for the extensive reply!

I wouldn't feel comfortable using white glue for ferrules or tips but clearly it can be used.

Loctite makes a variety of different kinds of CA's, some of wich seem to work well with certain applications so I am going to stick with them. For example I like their 480 rubber toughened CA a lot for installing snuggly fitting pins / insert on phenolic and it also works great for the more difficult break tip installations like the Hammerhead too :smile: 401 is my choice for the usual tip jobs, its cheap and easy to work with and has worked well so far.
Epoxies are a different matter. I dont care much for Loctites stuff, Devcon 2 ton seems to be quite the all around athlete and tough as any so that is what I use for ferrules and pins most often :rolleyes:


Is there a particular reason some cue makers prefer to use white glue over epoxy? Genuinely interested in the matter as my adhesive experience is limited to the narrow array of products that I have personally tested.
 
qbilder said:
Unless you're using thin CA that soaks deep into the tip & hardens it, I can't see any logical reason why the type of adhesive would make any difference in hit. Either the tip stays on or it doesn't. Tips are pressed on snug, so the layer of adhesive will be incredibly thin. It's safe to say there's leather contacting ferrule/wood.
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I agree, that when using modern methods for installing tips with a lot of pressure, the glue makes very little difference in the hit.

But I remember one who complained was using Tweeten cement on fiber ferrules. The Tweeten cement worked like a thin rubber pad under the tip and created a softer cushion type of hit. It would hold great on fiber, but did not hold that great on some of the other plastics. People were using rubber bands to hold them on while drying for hours which left a good bit of glue thickness still on the surface.
 
Not all white glue is ELMER's GLUE.
I wonder if that repair person was really using Elmer's.
There's even a water-based contact cement from Europe that is white.
I know one world famous boot maker uses and sells it.
 
Kimmo H. said:
^ Thanks for the extensive reply!

I wouldn't feel comfortable using white glue for ferrules or tips but clearly it can be used.

Loctite makes a variety of different kinds of CA's, some of wich seem to work well with certain applications so I am going to stick with them. For example I like their 480 rubber toughened CA a lot for installing snuggly fitting pins / insert on phenolic and it also works great for the more difficult break tip installations like the Hammerhead too :smile: 401 is my choice for the usual tip jobs, its cheap and easy to work with and has worked well so far.
Epoxies are a different matter. I dont care much for Loctites stuff, Devcon 2 ton seems to be quite the all around athlete and tough as any so that is what I use for ferrules and pins most often :rolleyes:


Is there a particular reason some cue makers prefer to use white glue over epoxy? Genuinely interested in the matter as my adhesive experience is limited to the narrow array of products that I have personally tested.
Click to expand...
If the ferrule is threaded and the tenon is snug, no reason why a good white glue won't do the job. One famous brand still uses Elmer's on their press-fit ferrules. I've seen some that have developed a huge gap at the bottom though. But, they are not threaded.
I don't know why they wouldn't switch to a more weather-resistant white glue. Or a stronger one. There are a few out there.
The reason for using glue instead of epoxy is it doesn't leave a glue line and the ferrules are easily removable by friction induced heat.

Some ferrule materials are not suitable for glue unless threaded though.
One big shaft maker is infamous for ferrules coming loose.
 
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