English on shots without rail

[ENGLISH!]

As for the "never" part, that is not what I said.

Sure. I have elaborated them here: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html
I don't have time right now to pick out the most pertinent sections.

Thanks for the reply.

As to the 'never', I asked the question to give you the opportunity to clarify your answer. Thank you for doing so.

As to the pitfalls, I too, & I would think most, don't have the time to read all of your literature in search for those answers. Perhaps if & when you do have the time you can point out one or two. Thanks again.

Regards,

 

[Scott Lee]

Rick...Since you ask such "thought-provoking" questions, and Bob provided you with a link to the information you seek, why don't YOU read it and find the answers yourself? Then you can post relevant links or data.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Thanks for the reply.

As to the 'never', I asked the question to give you the opportunity to clarify your answer. Thank you for doing so.

As to the pitfalls, I too & I would think most don't have the time to read all of your literature in search for those answers. Perhaps if & when you do have the time you can point out one or two. Thanks again.

Regards,

 

[randyg]

Thanks for the reply.

As to the 'never', I asked the question to give you the opportunity to clarify your answer. Thank you for doing so.

As to the pitfalls, I too & I would think most don't have the time to read all of your literature in search for those answers. Perhaps if & when you do have the time you can point out one or two. Thanks again.

Regards,

Rick

Be glad to help.

Missing the object ball's correct contact point because of cue ball squirt.

randyg

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick

Be glad to help.

Missing the object ball's correct contact point because of cue ball squirt.

randyg

Mr. G

Ahhh...but that can happen by applying unintended squirt as well. If the squirt is planned for then the appropriate point can be contacted.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick...Since you ask such "thought-provoking" questions, and Bob provided you with a link to the information you seek, why don't YOU read it and find the answers yourself? Then you can post relevant links or data.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Mr. Lee,

Relevant data like your trolling post.

Mr. Jewitt provided a link to what I think is every article he has ever written, because, as he said, even he did not have the time to locate specifics. I have neither the inclination nor wish to take the time to read all of Mr. Jewitt's articles on unrelated topics to locate what he believes are 'pitfalls'. It is he that expressed his belief of pitfalls. I merely asked him if he could elaborate. He did not have the time, so he provided the link should I choose to utilize it. I choose not to, given the volumes of unrelated topics. I again asked Mr. Jewiit that if he could find the time, could he simply give an example or two.

I wish you could see how petty you appear making such a totally trolling post.

Especially since you are a Master Instructor.

I hope you are not a true representation of ALL PBIA Instructors. If so, I think the 'Association' may be in trouble.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Start by reading the titles for an idea on the topic of the article.

Squirt testing
Side spin with kick
Spin it in
More Spin less speed
ect...ect...

Gosh, this is like bringing me back to my middle school teaching days.

I have neither the inclination nor wish to take the time to read all of Mr. Jewitt's articles on unrelated topics to locate what he believes are 'pitfalls'. It is he that expressed his belief of pitfalls. I merely asked him if he could elaborate. He did not have the time, so he provided the link should I choose to utilize it. I choose not to, given the volumes of unrelated topics. I again asked Mr. Jewiit that if he could find the time, could he simply give an example or two.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Start by reading the titles for an idea on the topic of the article.

Squirt testing
Side spin with kick
Spin it in
More Spin less speed
ect...ect...

Gosh, this is like bringing me back to my middle school teaching days.

I know all about the parameters of shooting with english. I have been doing so rather well for the last 46 years since I was 13 years old. Plus I have taken physics in both high school & college.

I merely wanted to know what specifically Mr. Jewitt considers the 'pitfalls' to which he referred.

You guys are very assumptive when you make your snide put downs.

It's very unimpresive when coming from what is supposed to be certified 'professionals'.

 

[randyg]

Mr. G

Ahhh...but that can happen by applying unintended squirt as well. If the squirt is planned for then the appropriate point can be contacted.

Foresure.

randyg

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Sorry but I call them as I see them. Your attitude in this reminds me of a 13 year old, that is because I have about 20 years experience with that age group.

Bob gave you a wealth of information to review, if the answers you desire aren't important enough to motivate you to search for them, than I am sorry.

I can't speak for Bob, but if I was him, I would not spoon-feed you either.

I am officially out of this discussion now.

AJM

I know all about the parameters of shooting with english. I have been doing so rather well for the last 46 years since I was 13 years old. Plus I have taken physics in both high school & college.

I merely wanted to know what specifically Mr. Jewitt considers the 'pitfalls' to which he referred.

You guys are very assumptive when you make your snide put downs.

It's very unimpresive when coming from what is supposed to be certified 'professionals'.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Sorry but I call them as I see them. Your attitude in this reminds me of a 13 year old, that is because I have about 20 years experience with that age group.

Bob gave you a wealth of information to review, if the answers you desire aren't important enough to motivate you to search for them, than I am sorry.

I can't speak for Bob, but if I was him, I would not spoon-feed you either.

I am officially out of this discussion now.

AJM

Fine with me. I never asked for your attitude to be thrust down upon me. Why did you insert yourself between a polite transmission between Mr. Jewitt & myself?

Your assumptive attitude & how you want to define me are mistaken.

I guess I will state it again. I am very well aware of the physics parameters of english spin & have 46 years of experience with it.

I am not a 13 year old child looking for info regarding english other than for Mr. Jewitt to elaborate on his opinions of any 'pitfalls' as he asserted to in this thread.

Due to the time lapse & the 'stuff' that has ensued I'm not really that interested if I have to go through all this 'stuff' to get what should be a simple answer from such learned men.

randyG made a short simple statement. Done deal.

Regards & have a Good Evening,

 

[KRJ]

It's NEVER too early to learn anything.

JMHO

Hey Rick, but yes, there are many times that it is too early to learn new things.

I don't teach kids (13 and up) how to throw a curveball, slider or sinker until they can throw their fastball and changeup for strikes on a consistent basis. No exceptions.

Why in hell would I teach a new player about english before they can pocket balls, understand the tangent line, perform speed control, draw, stop and follow effectively,,,,

There are steps to learning, just like you don't teach Algebra before the student has been taught addition and subtraction and division.

You need the foundation laid before you start stacking the bricks.

Later, RJ

 

[ENGLISH!]

Hey Rick, but yes, there are many times that it is too early to learn new things.

I don't teach kids (13 and up) how to throw a curveball, slider or sinker until they can throw their fastball and changeup for strikes on a consistent basis. No exceptions. So. if an 18 year old just could not throw his change up for strikes (I'm not exactly sure why you would want him throwing change ups for strikes but if he could not) you would not even consider teaching him to throw a curve ball. You would just alllow him to languish in medioctiry. No exceptions? I don't understand that. No, perhaps I do.

Why in hell would I teach a new player about english before they can pocket balls, understand the tangent line, perform speed control, draw, stop and follow effectively,,,,

There are steps to learning, just like you don't teach Algebra before the student has been taught addition and subtraction and division.

You need the foundation laid before you start stacking the bricks.

Later, RJ

Hi RJ,

Nicely worded suggestive post, but in it did you actually say when one should learn english?

As Jamse Bond (Sean Conery) said, 'Never Say Never'. Naturally they would need to be able to pocket balls & should have an understanding of the tagent line. I never (oops) said one should learn english first, immediately.

You make a few good points regarding baseball & pitching but the main concern there is regarding physical injury. (did you mean 13 & down) Because down here if a 14 year old can't throw a slider & a curve ball there's a good chance he will never (there I go again with that word) pitch on his all star or high school team. If it were a full grown adult you would teach those pitches asap. He might even never learn to throw a fast ball for a strike. Some guys are 'nothing' but off speed pitchers.

I don't think there is any real fear of physical injury from using english not even for a 13 year old or an 83 year old lady.

Now for your intellectual comparison.

If a student walks in & already knows algebra there is no need to teach them addition & subtraction to teach them physics. In fact, you can probably teach them basic physics & algebra at the same time.

So IMHO, speed control, draw, & follow can be learned during the same time frame together with english. In fact, I think it would be very advantages to learn a simple cut shot with a rebound off a rail with center, outside english & inside english back to back to back, Boom, Boom, Boom. Then with low, Boom, Boom, Boom. Then with high, Boom Boom, Boom. I was learning it on my own, when I was 13, within weeks of touching my first cue. That way, when one has a certain shot, they will see ALL of their options.
Why play pool for years seeing one type of cue ball pattern when one can learn virtually an unlimited amount in a matter of minutes?

I look at english as part of the the foundation. Simple ball pocketing is more like the pilings that the foundation is laid upon.

Maybe teaching english is only in the repertoire of a few good instructors that see it as the stepping stone from medioctiy to playing well. Or many instructors either can't or don't want to teach english for some other reasons.

I hate to say this, but as it was mentioned in another thread about how far behind pool is in compared to golf in the area of biomechanics study & instruction. The picture that seems to have been painted for me here on AZB is that many pool instructors are like the old driving range pros that would never (that word again) teach what might lose them that next lesson fee.

I know how that sounds, sorry. I'm just speaking from my general impression & am not directing that comment to anyone in specific. It's just the thought that came into my mind while thinking about how many seem to think english is so advance that one can't learn how to use it until their stroke is 'perfect' & they are an expert in everything else. Yet I learned it on my own when I was 13 years old.

Again sorry, but that's the impression I've garnered in my short time on AZB.

Regards & Best Wishes,

 

[Neil]

Hi RJ,

Nicely worded suggestive post, but in it did you actually say when one should learn english?

As Jamse Bond (Sean Conery) said, 'Never Say Never'. Naturally they would need to be able to pocket balls & should have an understanding of the tagent line. I never (oops) said one should learn english first, immediately.

You make a few good points regarding baseball & pitching but the main concern there is regarding physical injury. (did you mean 13 & down) Because down here if a 14 year old can't throw a slider & a curve ball there's a good chance he will never (there I go again with that word) pitch on his all star or high school team. If it were a full grown adult you would teach those pitches asap. He might even never learn to throw a fast ball for a strike. Some guys are 'nothing' but off speed pitchers.

I don't think there is any real fear of physical injury from using english not even for a 13 year old or an 83 year old lady.

Now for your intellectual comparison.

If a student walks in & already knows algebra there is no need to teach them addition & subtraction to teach them physics. In fact, you can probably teach them basic physics & algebra at the same time.

So IMHO, speed control, draw, & follow can be learned during the same time frame together with english. In fact, I think it would be very advantages to learn a simple cut shot with a rebound off a rail with center, outside english & inside english back to back to back, Boom, Boom, Boom. Then with low, Boom, Boom, Boom. Then with high, Boom Boom, Boom. I was learning it on my own, when I was 13, within weeks of touching my first cue. That way, when one has a certain shot, they will see ALL of their options.

Why play pool for years seeing one type of cue ball pattern when one can learn virtually an unlimited amount in a matter of minutes?

I look at english as part of the the foundation. Simple ball pocketing is more like the pilings that the foundation is laid upon.

Maybe teaching english is only in the repertoire of a few good instructors that see it as the stepping stone from medioctiry to playing well. Or many instructors either can't or don't want to teach english for some other reasons.

I hate to say this, but as it was mentioned in another thread about how far behind pool is in compared to golf in the area of biomechanics study & instruction. The picture that seems to have been painted for me here on AZB is that many pool instructors are like the old driving range pros that would never (that word again) teach what might lose them that next lesson fee.

I know how that sounds, sorry. I'm just speaking from my general impression & am not directing that comment to anyone in specific. It's just the thought that came into my mind while thinking about how many seem to think english is so advance that one can't learn how to use it until their stroke is 'perfect' & they are an expert in everything else. Yet I learned it on my own when I was 13 years old.

Again sorry, but that's the impression I've garnered in my short time on AZB.

Regards & Best Wishes,

You're not "getting it". No one said one CAN'T learn english early on. Some have said one SHOULD'NT learn it early on. You are a prime example of this reasoning you dismiss so readily.

What did you do when you learned to spin the ball around the table? You spun it on every or almost every shot. Because of that, you never learned to use the natural angles off the balls by staying close to center cb. You never learned the easier way to play the game.

I believe one should first learn the natural angles, and then learn how to alter those angles reliably.

 

[ENGLISH!]

You're not "getting it". No one said one CAN'T learn english early on. Some have said one SHOULD'NT learn it early on. You are a prime example of this reasoning you dismiss so readily.

What did you do when you learned to spin the ball around the table? You spun it on every or almost every shot. Because of that, you never learned to use the natural angles off the balls by staying close to center cb. You never learned the easier way to play the game.

I believe one should first learn the natural angles, and then learn how to alter those angles reliably.

Mr. Neil,

With ALL Due Respect,

You assume again. If you will note in my post I mentioned center first, then outside, then inside. The english angles are based off of the natural angles. Why would I hit with either outside or inside IF the natural angle is the way? If the natural angle is the way then the outside or inside english ways would be wrong.

Naturally if one knows ALL of the ways one might develop a preferred way & look there first & if it can be done that way they would probably go that way. But if their prefered way is not readily available then ALL other options are available, IF one knows them ALL & how to execute ALL of them.

Regards to You Sir,

 

[KRJ]

deleted. why bother

 

[Neil]

Mr. Neil,

With ALL Due Respect,

You assume again. If you will note in my post I mentioned center first, then outside, then inside. The english angles are based off of the natural angles. Why would I hit with either outside or inside IF the natural angle is the way? If the natural angle is the way then the outside or inside english ways would be wrong.

Naturally if one knows ALL of the ways one might develop a preferred way & look there first & if it can be done that way they would probably go that way. But if their prefered way is not readily available then ALL other options are available, IF one knows them ALL & how to execute ALL of them.

Regards to You Sir,

No, I didn't assume anything. I went by what YOU have said on here many, many, many, many times- that the only thing you have learned on here was TOI from CJ, that staying closer to center and using natural angles was new to you, but that you are trying it and how fantastic it seems to be to you. So, don't blame me, blame yourself.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Duplicate. Sorry.

 

[ENGLISH!]

No, I didn't assume anything. I went by what YOU have said on here many, many, many, many times- that the only thing you have learned on here was TOI from CJ, that staying closer to center and using natural angles was new to you, but that you are trying it and how fantastic it seems to be to you. So, don't blame me, blame yourself.

I believe you are mis-representing what I said. I said the TOI & using the Squirt/Deflection was new to me & the only thing that I could take form AZB to improve my game. It is the method that was new to me. The natural angles are not new to me. It was controlling the Squirt/Deflection for pocketing balls was what I was trying, not the hitting of center. Fantasic is your word not mine.

Hitting the verticle axis has always been an option, allthough one I seldomly chose to use after I learned how to use english to send the CB where I want it to go instead of just where the natural angles & hitting along the vertical axis want to take it. Be at choice how each individual decides.

You were not even posting when I first came on AZB so I had no experience with anything you had been advocting until our 'discusson' regarding the pendulum stroke. You seem to be insulted by me saying that I learned something from CJ. Well, take a look around, I'm not the only one. You sound jealous & seem to think that you are under appreciated.

I have tried to be respecful to you here & there & each time you have responded with distortions, things out of context & put downs. I'm done regarding that.

Best Wishes & Health to You,

 

[ENGLISH!]

Man, you really have a hard time understanding basic concepts. yes, the 14 y/o throwing curveballs and sliders is fine, but if he can't throw his fast ball for strikes, he's not making any all star team anyways unless he hits a ton, or is a wizard at shortstop.... but he ain't pitching any all star teams in Chicago area. And no coach worth anything is gonna teach him that until he learns control, no matter how many backward baseball coaches you have in your parts.

And you are wrong on the adult part as well. if they don't have the mechanis to throw a fastball or change up for a strike, I'm not teaching them to throw a curveball.... I don't have the patient to work with folks who just don't get it and NOBODY needs the money that bad ..... folks that want to learn on their scheudule is not the student I want.....
and for the record, the pitchers that are "off speed" pitchers can throw their fast ball for a strike... even the knuckleball pitchers throw fastballs for strikes, but because they throw all off speed stuff it makes their fastball look faster than it is.... but you knew that already, didn't ya This is your problem, in a nut shell. You're an expert at everything, and you wonder why the folks that know something throw you under the bus on occasion. And now you are the expert on pitching and baseball as well.... but I'm guessin you don't instruct that either... just a keyboard expert of course cause you learned how to throw a curveball when you were 13 ??? and now we enter the pool area, and you are right over every expert who ever taught and played the game cause "you done lernt it when you was just a grasshopper"....

And now you change the story to "if they aleady knew basic math you can teach them Algebra". Well NO F*CKING SHIT EINSTEIN, but the discussion is around new players, or new students, thus why I used the new student to math example, and why you would NOT teach him Alegebra if he does NOT know how to add and subtract... is this NOT a correct statement, or did you learn that at 13 as well.

You are one stubborn old fool. And I mean that in the most sincere way.
I've trained with many HOF'ers, Stan Shuffet, and a few Master Instructors, and rather than go in there with the mind set of I know everything, and my way is the right way, even though I have been playing pool for decades, I would NEVER have taken away the stuff they imparted to me...... just food for thought my friend.

You should ask yourself one question? Why do you even come into the instructor thread?

Do you really enjoy disagreeing with every person/instructor/expoert who ever taught pool because you learned something at 13.

And just for the record, that is not a conclusive methodology to use during an argument, but you use it every single friggin time......... get some new material before you come in here and get your arse handed to you yet once again ....

Or at least troll the NPR section where I don't have to be so nice !!

PS: And change your stupid tag line about "playing for 46 years and you will help if you can"... unless you mean help derail threads with your constant disagreement with....wait for it...... certified instructors and pro players.....ah, that felt good .

Why is it when one does not agree with an answer that some instructors resort to distortions, mis-quotes, & personal derogatory 'attacks'. Is it because they think that their opinion is 'gospel' with which one must agree. There are instructors here on AZB that do not agree about some things but they should follow the code of professional courtesy. Well I'm not bound by such, on either end, the give or the take.

In any case, you certainly did not answer the question at hand or convince me of your point with your totally non related analogies. What basic concept. That one must learn something before they can learn something else. That is simply not entirely ture. It may be a guideline for you and others, but it is just one concept given certain parameters. It is not always apllicable. IMHO it is not necessary when aplied to english in pool.

You seem to have associated your 'teaching' english to the question of 'when should one learn'. I think it very arrogant to think that one can not learn on their own & must be taught by a certified instructor. You may have misinterupted the question.

In any case, Sorry I caused you to 'blow a gasket'.

 

[Neil]

I believe you are mis-representing what I said. I said the TOI & using the Squirt/Deflection was new to me & the only thing that I could take form AZB to improve my game. It is the method that was new to me. The natural angles are not new to me. It was controlling the Squirt/Deflection for pocketing balls was what I was trying, not the hitting of center. Fantasic is your word not mine.

Hitting the verticle axis has always been an option, allthough one I seldomly chose to use after I learned how to use english to send the CB where I want it to go instead of just where the natural angles & hitting along the vertical axis want to take it. Be at choice how each individual decides.

You were not even posting when I first came on AZB so I had no experience with anything you had been advocting until our 'discusson' regarding the pendulum stroke. You seem to be insulted by me saying that I learned something from CJ. Well, take a look around, I'm not the only one. You sound jealous & seem to think that you are under appreciated.

I have tried to be respecful to you here & there & each time you have responded with distortions, things out of context & put downs. I'm done regarding that.

Best Wishes & Health to You,

Baloney, you trying to be respectful...if that were true, you wouldn't be making up crap about me to try and put me down. You do it to many others on here too. YOU are the one always distorting things and using putdowns like you did right above. And, I'm not you, I don't care who people learn things from, as long as what they learn is worthwhile and beneficial. Some of what CJ says is just that, so get off your agenda. Fact is, you got busted while taking another jab at instructors, and can't handle it. Too bad.