English with Top or Bottom = Disaster???

[Neil]

Nick, I only saw Dr Cue using the cushions to show effects of English. Didn’t see him pocket a ball then point out the path of the CB afterwards.



Now Neil. Yes, I know you’re Neil and not Nick. The first part of my last post was directed to Nick. But this is for you, Neil. Of course, the real question is: Where’s Nell? Btw, I’m changing my name to Nate. (Sorry, couldn’t help myself! :grin

Here is that diagram from Pool Player’s Edge. You can clearly see how the CB’s trajectory (before hitting the rail) is different depending on the English.

View attachment 300003

Since I found this out, I know even less about anything. All I can do now is pray the CB isn’t going to end up in a totally disastrous position. :frown: Forget about calculating anything. The variables are more numerous than stars in the Milky Way.

PS -- To add even more confusion: Center Ball is showed in this diagram as moving more or less along the Tangent Line. But I understand that's wrong. You have to hit BELOW Center to follow a Tangent. So what good is using "no spin" Center Ball as a reference?

I don't know who wrote that book, but I'm hoping he had a fair amount of text to explain what it going on in it. I agree, the picture is very misleading.

To answer your last question first- center ball- understand this: when you hit the cb in the center, it will start out sliding across the cloth. Then, due to friction of the cloth and ball, it will over time and distance start picking up forward roll. How soon that happens depends on the speed of the hit and the friction of the cloth and ball. You can easily check this out using a striped ball for the cb, and watch to see when the sliding stops and forward roll takes over with different speeds.

Now, to the english portion- when you hit to the left of center, the cb will squirt to the right, and then gradually start to curve back to the left. And vice versa. This means that you have to adjust your aim to allow for it. (I don't want to go into the use of back-hand english , or BHE, at this point because you aren't ready for it yet)

So, what we have shown, but not explained in the diagram, is this:
If you have a high squirt cue, and you use inside english on this shot (left), the cb will squirt off to the right. Then, the cb will (read CAN depending on speed of shot) curve back to the left. The result of that is you are no longer hitting the ob at the same angle you were with no english. You are now hitting it on a straighter line. That means that the cb will now veer off the side down the tangent line much less than it did before. Thus, showing the red line to the far left of the center and right english lines.

So.... the change in end position on the rail after contact is NOT due to the spin on the cb after contact with the ob, but instead it is due to the change in contact angles of the cb and ob. Just like if you hit a shot dead straight on, the cb will follow straight after the ob, when hit on a straighter line, the cb will go straighter than when hit at a larger angle.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Nick, I only saw Dr Cue using the cushions to show effects of English. Didn’t see him pocket a ball then point out the path of the CB afterwards.



Now Neil. Yes, I know you’re Neil and not Nick. The first part of my last post was directed to Nick. But this is for you, Neil. Of course, the real question is: Where’s Nell? Btw, I’m changing my name to Nate. (Sorry, couldn’t help myself! :grin

Here is that diagram from Pool Player’s Edge. You can clearly see how the CB’s trajectory (before hitting the rail) is different depending on the English.

View attachment 300003

Since I found this out, I know even less about anything. All I can do now is pray the CB isn’t going to end up in a totally disastrous position. :frown: Forget about calculating anything. The variables are more numerous than stars in the Milky Way.

PS -- To add even more confusion: Center Ball is showed in this diagram as moving more or less along the Tangent Line. But I understand that's wrong. You have to hit BELOW Center to follow a Tangent. So what good is using "no spin" Center Ball as a reference?

I'm not an instructor or a pro so I'm trying to refrain from answering in a way that makes me sound like one. But in regard to your last point you don't necessarily have to hit below center to have the CB go on the 90 degree tangent line. You only have to make contact with stun to do that. Now, whether or not you have to hit below center to have stun at impact depends on how far away you are and how hard you hit the shot. A lot of instruction books perhaps oversimplifies it by assuming that center ball equals stun at impact. It might be, but it isn't necessarily the case.

As for the different tangent lines in your diagram, this is primarily due to having to cut the ball differently due to throw when using side. My understanding is that the effects of english in and of itself does not dramatically alter the tangent line of the cue ball, certainly nothing like it does off a rail. I'm sure I will be corrected if this is wrong.

 

[dr_dave]

"I more I learn the less I know."

No, that's not Buddha.

It's just me. :frown:

Perfect example: English with Top or Bottom has become even more confusing once I learned that English SIGNIFICANTLY affects how the CB travels after hitting the OB, not just after hitting a rail.

So how on earth can anyone calculate what High Left or Low Right will do?

Here Dr. Dave appears to break it down into simple parts. http://www.billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/NV5-3.htm SEE ALSO MY POST BELOW. I finally managed to post a screenshot! YAY!

On the first shot you use Low-Right because first you want to draw to avoid hitting the 4-Ball and then the English will make the CB avoid the 3-ball coming off the rail.

BUT...

...isn't the initial trajectory (the draw effect) also altered by combining it with English?
Hence the predicted path for a Draw is something totally different.

My question is: How different is it? Anyway to tell? Any drills to make one understand?

In a recent situation I had an OB closer to the pocket with the CB around the same position (as in Dr. Dave's vid) and I hit it with High Right, thinking (like Dr Dave might): Okay, now the Follow will make it go along the 30-degree rule and then the English will take effect off the rail, giving the CB a wider angle.

INSTEAD...

...what actually happened was the English created a monster and the CB didn't even hit a rail but made a beeline towards the opposite corner pocket. The 30-degree rule went right out the window.

FYI, I read through the thread. The following might help:

When using sidespin (with or without top or bottom), you need to be aware of how to adjust for squirt and swerve; otherwise, you won't hit the OB where you think you are. And when there is a cut angle and/or when using sidespin, you need to be aware of throw and how it varies with shot speed, cut angle, the amount of top/bottom spin, and the amount of sidespin; otherwise, the OB won't head where you think it should. For more info, see aim compensation for squirt, swerve, and throw.

Concerning the path the CB takes, see where the CB goes for different types of shots. When using the 30-degree rule, you need to be aware of speed effects.

Please check out all of the info and videos available via these links. This will help answer all of the questions in this thread and many more.

Good luck,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I'm not an instructor or a pro so I'm trying to refrain from answering in a way that makes me sound like one. But in regard to your last point you don't necessarily have to hit below center to have the CB go on the 90 degree tangent line. You only have to make contact with stun to do that. Now, whether or not you have to hit below center to have stun at impact depends on how far away you are and how hard you hit the shot. A lot of instruction books perhaps oversimplifies it by assuming that center ball equals stun at impact. It might be, but it isn't necessarily the case.

As for the different tangent lines in your diagram, this is primarily due to having to cut the ball differently due to throw when using side. My understanding is that the effects of english in and of itself does not dramatically alter the tangent line of the cue ball, certainly nothing like it does off a rail. I'm sure I will be corrected if this is wrong.

Good summary. For a lot more info on this topic (including well-illustrated diagrams), see:

"90° and 30° Rule Follow-up - Part IV: english effects" (BD, May, 2005).

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Nick, I only saw Dr Cue using the cushions to show effects of English. Didn’t see him pocket a ball then point out the path of the CB afterwards.



Now Neil. Yes, I know you’re Neil and not Nick. The first part of my last post was directed to Nick. But this is for you, Neil. Of course, the real question is: Where’s Nell? Btw, I’m changing my name to Nate. (Sorry, couldn’t help myself! :grin

Here is that diagram from Pool Player’s Edge. You can clearly see how the CB’s trajectory (before hitting the rail) is different depending on the English.

View attachment 300003

Since I found this out, I know even less about anything. All I can do now is pray the CB isn’t going to end up in a totally disastrous position. :frown: Forget about calculating anything. The variables are more numerous than stars in the Milky Way.

PS -- To add even more confusion: Center Ball is showed in this diagram as moving more or less along the Tangent Line. But I understand that's wrong. You have to hit BELOW Center to follow a Tangent. So what good is using "no spin" Center Ball as a reference?

1) There's so much you can do on that position shot using speed and the vertical axis only.

2) You can use a 1/4 or 1/2 a tip of english on the same shot anyway.

3) You'll want to consider parallel "english", pivot and backhand english on something like that. There are a few techniques you can use, along with speed, to reduce the recalculation of the o.b. contact point...

 

[CurvedCue]

First off, I want to thank all you guys for your generous input. :smile:

But questions still nag me.

Sorry, if I seem “spatially challenged” or whatever.

But I am! Haha.

Here are my questions:

As for the different tangent lines in your diagram, this is primarily due to having to cut the ball differently due to throw when using side.

So depends on whether you hit the OB fuller or thinner to compensate for throw? Like if you use Left English you have to hit the OB fuller because it gets thrown toward the right. Right? But if that’s the case, the “true B tangent line” should be more where C is.

If you have a high squirt cue, and you use inside english on this shot (left), the cb will squirt off to the right. Then, the cb will (read CAN depending on speed of shot) curve back to the left. The result of that is you are no longer hitting the ob at the same angle you were with no english.

But if you’re compensating for squirt why should the CB hit the OB from a different angle?

Before this only gets more confusing for me, I’d like to ask a basic question:

What EXACTLY has to be done to get the CB to follow the NORMAL tangent line when using English?

When using the 30-degree rule, you need to be aware of speed effects.

View attachment 300109

Okay, I practiced the shot from my game using varying speeds (with High English) and did notice a difference.

Still, it veered off WAY MORE than shown in your diagram.

That's why I believe it's because of the addition of English.

when you hit the cb in the center, it will start out sliding across the cloth. Then, due to friction of the cloth and ball, it will over time and distance start picking up forward roll. How soon that happens depends on the speed of the hit and the friction of the cloth and ball.

So why not always hit below center to ensure no forward roll?

Here’s a diagram (again from Dr Dave’s book), which clearly shows how shooting center does not make the CB follow the tangent line. Instead, Center seems to produce something that’s between 90 degrees and a Follow shot. If I think of it that way it makes sense.

View attachment 300110

 

[dr_dave]

Okay, I practiced the shot from my game using varying speeds (with High English) and did notice a difference.

Still, it veered off WAY MORE than shown in your diagram.

The purpose for that diagram was just to illustrate the effect. The amount of tangent-line shift depends on conditions and shot speed. For slow to medium-speed shots, there is very little shift.

That's why I believe it's because of the addition of English.

The effect of sidespin on the 30-degree rule is minimal per Diagram 2 in this article: "90° and 30° Rule Follow-up - Part IV: english effects" (BD, May, 2005).

So why not always hit below center to ensure no forward roll?

The CB path is very easy to predict when the CB has full forward roll.

Here’s a diagram (again from Dr Dave’s book), which clearly shows how shooting center does not make the CB follow the tangent line. Instead, Center seems to produce something that’s between 90 degrees and a Follow shot. If I think of it that way it makes sense.

A center-ball hit on the CB does not produce a stun shot (with no top or bottom spin) unless the CB is close to the OB and/or the shot speed is very fast. With most center-ball hits, the CB picks up a little forward roll on the way to the OB, so it follows forward of the tangent line some.

I hope that helps,
Dave

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

So depends on whether you hit the OB fuller or thinner to compensate for throw? Like if you use Left English you have to hit the OB fuller because it gets thrown toward the right. Right? But if that’s the case, the “true B tangent line” should be more where C is.

I'll respond to the above question you asked of my post. Here's your diagram:

Line B in the diagram that hits the rail closest to the pocket corresponds with left, or inside, english. You are correct for the first part of your question that it depends on the cut angle to compensate for throw when using side.

But your conclusion after that is incorrect. You are right that if you use left then the OB will be thrown to the right, BUT where you go wrong is that means you need to hit the OB thinner, not fuller. Think of it this way, if the OB will be thrown to the right, you need to aim a bit left of the pocket so it will be thrown right and into the hole. To do this you would cut the OB thinner.

This results in the tangent line B versus the other two lines. :thumbup:

 

[3kushn]

I hope you understand that a mm or 2 or 5 difference in the actual OB contact point could still sink the ball but creates different tangent lines. Also realize us mere mortals can't recognize if one hit is .75 millimeters different than the previous hit.

In 3 cushion people talk about 1 tip, 2 tips ... of English. In pool I sometimes hear this too but more often I hear "low left" or high right...Well what the heck does any of that mean? There's also diagrams like the one in your above post with dots on the CB telling you exactly where the tip should touch the CB. I guarantee you if you follow those diagrams exactly you will not get the exact results the author is saying. At least not at first. Why you ask? Because you're not the author who gets those results or the diagrams are simply a generalized illustration. That doesn't mean you can't, or the diagrams are invalid, it means you need to work on getting the results. Assuming the diagrams have merit in the first place. Digging deeper it means you need to practice because some of these diagrams have much merit and there must be something in your mechanics or observations that are lacking. Shooting your above diagramed shots: Can you tell me without any doubt that your tip hit THE EXACT DEAD CENTER of the CB?? EVERY TIME? And the OB hit the pocket on the EXACT same line?

In Raymond Ceulemans Mr. 100 book he states something to the effect that the systems in this book are accurate and if you're not getting the same results shown then you must adjust until you achieve them. In other words, don't argue with me.

I think Neil explained it all well but maybe it just hasn't clicked in yet. One thing I thought he should have expounded a little more on is "Speed" and "Distance" He does say it but kind of a passing shot. I will admit a book can be written on this alone an maybe why he didn't go on. These two factors are huge with respect to deflection, swerve, angle, throw....

Take CJ's advice. Center Ball and speed control. Sounds boring maybe but that's where the best players are. Sure they know how and why to spin the ball, and do it well. They also know how not to and why not.

 

[scottjen26]

I think you are falling victim to something I've seen in most sports-related material, that is it can be difficult to convey a concept accurately and concisely, pictures and even words can be misleading and confusing. Writers like Robert Byrne, Phil Capelle, Dr. Dave, etc. do a great job at conveying accurate information, but not all do.

Some of this has been covered well by previous posters, but to summarize:

- The diagram is incorrect, assuming that the shot is being shot into the same part of the pocket with the same speed etc. The difference between center, 1 tip of left, and 1 tip of right would not appreciably alter the tangent line. But because you are 5 diamonds away from the shot, trying to replicate the same exact hit/speed/spin would be difficult, however usually close enough is good enough

- Tangent line is achieved by hitting a stun shot, where the ball is sliding at contact. Where you hit varies based on distance between the ball and the speed used. At 1 diamond away, a true center ball hit and medium speed might be good enough, depending on your stroke. At 2 diamonds distance, you might need 1/2 tip of draw to ensure it's sliding at contact. From there you practice and learn to add more draw and/or more speed to achieve the same effect. Use a striped ball as your cue ball and watch to see that the ball is sliding at contact (no backward spin) and you will see the cue ball consistently follow the tangent line

- As Dr. Dave posted, a rolling cue ball is very easy to predict, that's why it's used as often as possible for "natural" position. Good players also have a good feel for the stun shot above and can almost always send the cue ball along the tangent line pretty accurately as well

- English does not alter the path of the cue ball after contact, what typically does is the effects of curve or squirt which result in a thinner or thicker hit on the object ball, ball still goes in but into a different part of the pocket thus altering the tangent line. I can easily hit a ball a few diamonds away with maximum spin and leave the cue ball spinning in place, the same effect I would get with a stun shot.

- Fundamentals matter, as does which part of the pocket is being used. An incorrect approach into the ball (pivoted cue stick) or unnecessary elevation will result in a different path than a player hitting the ball with more correct fundamentals. That's why the effects that one person sees with 1 tip of draw and 1 tip of sidespin may not be the same as another.

- Because of everything mentioned, and more, using spin should be practiced a lot and reserved for players that have mastered position on the vertical axis, a lot can be accomplished with speed and varying amounts of draw or follow. And even when using spin, you can often achieve what you need with a minimum of english, which helps you minimize the curve/squirt compensation needed. But we can't help ourselves sometimes and must juice the ball!!!


I learned a lot about using spin from playing 3 cushion, you tend to hit the ball at the extremes of both speed and spin much more often than in pool, and you get very familiar with the relationship between thick/thin hits, less/more english, how to dramatically alter the path around the table, etc. While this is useful, and I can do things others can't, it's best to keep things simple when playing pool. Watch snooker players on YouTube, or various pool players with that background, spin is involved but only when needed and then typically only what's needed to get the job done.

Scott

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

So why not always hit below center to ensure no forward roll?

As Dr. Dave said, it is easy to determine the path the cue ball will take when it makes contact with forward roll. I'd like to add something else - it is also easier to execute.

A stun shot requires some practice, experience and judgement. It is not a simple matter of just hitting below center because it all depends on the distance, speed, and the correct amount of below center hit to match the first two factors. You can hit below center and if you haven't properly calculated the speed required given the length of the shot, you might end up hitting the OB with draw or forward roll on the cue ball rather than stun.

It is however almost always a very simple matter to contact the object ball with forward roll. And since both the stun path (90 degrees) and the forward roll path (30 degrees) are very predictable, it is usually more reliable to hit the shot with forward roll unless you have a specific need for the stun shot. You have to worry much less about speed and distance, and you don't have to worry at all about the amount of draw to use.

Also, hitting with forward roll gives you more leeway to get the speed right because you don't have to think about matching the speed with the appropriate amount of below center hit to accomplish the stun.

About the only time it gets complicated is when you are hitting the shot hard and pretty full with follow, in which case you might have to consider over-spin after contact (i.e. force follow), which will bend the tangent line. But this isn't very often whereas with the stun shot you are almost always having to judge speed, distance, and the amount of draw together and get all of them right.

The complexities of the stun shot is one reason for the importance of learning and practicing the stop shot, which is essentially hitting a straight in shot with stun. It's not just about learning to stop the cue ball, but also about mastering the stun shot. Practicing the stop shot will teach you how to match draw, speed, and distance to contact the OB with stun.

 

[3kushn]

- English does not alter the path of the cue ball after contact, what typically does is the effects of curve or squirt which result in a thinner or thicker hit on the object ball, ball still goes in but into a different part of the pocket thus altering the tangent line. I can easily hit a ball a few diamonds away with maximum spin and leave the cue ball spinning in place, the same effect I would get with a stun shot.

Scott

Great post but want to point out that the OB can take the same line but with the CB curving into the OB it strikes at a different angle than if the CB were hit with no English (side spin) creating different tangent line in this fashion. In essence the CB is curving across the face of the OB rather than traveling in a straight line across the face or directly into it depending on the initial shot angle. I am disregarding effects of throw on purpose here. Not enough time.

 

[CurvedCue]

A lot to process here (at least for me).

I'm gonna experiment and practice and follow-up at some later point.

You guys are the best! :thumbup:

 

[scottjen26]

Great post but want to point out that the OB can take the same line but with the CB curving into the OB it strikes at a different angle than if the CB were hit with no English (side spin) creating different tangent line in this fashion. In essence the CB is curving across the face of the OB rather than traveling in a straight line across the face or directly into it depending on the initial shot angle. I am disregarding effects of throw on purpose here. Not enough time.

You are correct, but I believe the difference would be fairly minimal in most normal situations and not something the OP should be worried about. That's why I tried to keep it simple...

Scott

 

[CurvedCue]

You are correct, but I believe the difference would be fairly minimal in most normal situations and not something the OP should be worried about. That's why I tried to keep it simple...

Scott

So basically disregard the illustration from Pool Player's Edge showing three different tangent lines?

 

[scottjen26]

For all intents and purposes, yes.
Scott