Epoxy /Pin Question

Zphix

Zphix

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Was playing league last night when my cue wouldn't tighten - I thought the threads inside the shaft were stripped but it turns out the epoxy holding the pin in place from the butt loosened and the pin kept spinning. To the point where the pin was firmer in the shaft than the butt so the entire pin is out of my cue right now.

So, would I be able to screw the pin back in using epoxy to keep to fix this problem? If so, how do I get the old epoxy off the bottom 3 threads... and what epoxy would be best to use here?

Also, what's the process for doing this by myself?

P.S. It's a standard 3/8x10 pin that's a flat face going into the butt, and a standard pin going into the shaft.
 
Zphix said:
Was playing league last night when my cue wouldn't tighten - I thought the threads inside the shaft were stripped but it turns out the epoxy holding the pin in place from the butt loosened and the pin kept spinning. To the point where the pin was firmer in the shaft than the butt so the entire pin is out of my cue right now.

So, would I be able to screw the pin back in using epoxy to keep to fix this problem? If so, how do I get the old epoxy off the bottom 3 threads... and what epoxy would be best to use here?

Also, what's the process for doing this by myself?

P.S. It's a standard 3/8x10 pin that's a flat face going into the butt, and a standard pin going into the shaft.
Click to expand...

You should have a qualified cue person take care of this. And one of your questions for that person should be!
What kind of epoxy do you use? If they say 5 minute, look elsewhere.
 
Also... the butt end of the pin-insert isn't threaded at all. It is entirely drilled out. The pin doesn't screw into the butt basically, it can freely slide in or out. Can that be fixed as well? Basically, can the non-threaded bore be threaded in the future?
 
Zphix said:
Individual maker.
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I hope the hole is dead straight if you are going to epoxy it yourself .
I wouldn't b/c there's already a cheapo epoxy in there .
And sounds like the screw was not prepped well.
As Mike suggested, take it to a competent repair person or maker .
That is if you don't want to send it the original maker .
 
Zphix said:
Also... the butt end of the pin-insert isn't threaded at all. It is entirely drilled out. The pin doesn't screw into the butt basically, it can freely slide in or out. Can that be fixed as well? Basically, can the non-threaded bore be threaded in the future?
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I would chuck that screw and replace it .
Re-bore that hole and plug it up .
Then, re-install a new screw .
 
JoeyInCali said:
I would chuck that screw and replace it .
Re-bore that hole and plug it up .
Then, re-install a new screw .
Click to expand...

Thanks for the replies Joey and Mike.

Joey, can you explain this process to me so I can get my head around it? Obviously re-boring the hole means drilling it again but what about the "plug it up" portion?

There's not much epoxy in the bore either. You can almost clearly see the very bottom of the bore. But, from what I have heard I won't be tackling this as a DIY project.
 
One more question while I had the caliper out.

My joint collars are flush with the wood underneath the collar, but the diameter of the collar is right around 21mm, and to my knowledge a stock collar is right around 21.25mm (give or take). The point is that the current diameter on the shaft collar doesn't match the diameter on the butt and the diameter of the butt isn't the same as the diameter on a stock shaft. Can this be fixed?

What I assume they do is put a slightly larger one on and then taper the shaft down a bit? What about the butt portion of the joint collar?

My joint collar is at 21mm, and the butt collar is at 21.15mm (might be closer to 21.12mm) so they would both need to be replaced to be slightly larger. Both of these are fixable as well?
 
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Zphix said:
One more question while I had the caliper out.

My joint collars are flush with the wood underneath the collar, but the diameter of the collar is right around 21mm, and to my knowledge a stock collar is right around 21.25mm (give or take). The point is that the current diameter on the shaft collar doesn't match the diameter on the butt and the diameter of the butt isn't the same as the diameter on a stock shaft. Can this be fixed?

What I assume they do is put a slightly larger one on and then taper the shaft down a bit? What about the butt portion of the joint collar?

My joint collar is at 21mm, and the butt collar is at 21.15mm (might be closer to 21.12mm) so they would both need to be replaced to be slightly larger. Both of these are fixable as well?
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Leave this one to the professionals, also. 0.25mm is about 0.010" which, if the collars are perfectly coaxial is less than two layers of typing paper wrapped around the circumference. If you consider this a problem worthy of changing a collar for, you are much pickier than I.
 
ElCorazonFrio said:
Leave this one to the professionals, also. 0.25mm is about 0.010" which, if the collars are perfectly coaxial is less than two layers of typing paper wrapped around the circumference. If you consider this a problem worthy of changing a collar for, you are much pickier than I.
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I'm glad you brought this up because I don't think the current set up is coaxial because the difference is very noticeable. The butt is at .832 inches, and a standard joint collar is at .850 inches. That difference is very noticeable.

I'd like to have the butt collar as close to .850 as possible, same with the shaft that's currently at .826 inches.

Directly under the butt collar the wood comes in at .846 inches.

As it is, the current collar set up with the .006 doesn't bother me but both collars are cracked and need to be replaced anyway. In the future if I want to use a stock shaft for whatever reason then the .018 in difference will be very noticeable. So, because the collars need to be replaced anyway (I want black phenolic instead of the current ones) then I might as well see if the collar diameters can be fixed.
 
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Zphix said:
I'm glad you brought this up because I don't think the current set up is coaxial because the difference is very noticeable. The butt is at .832 inches, and a standard joint collar is at .850 inches. That difference is very noticeable.

I'd like to have the butt collar as close to .850 as possible, same with the shaft that's currently at .826 inches.

Directly under the butt collar the wood comes in at .846 inches.

As it is, the current collar set up with the .006 doesn't bother me but both collars are cracked and need to be replaced anyway. In the future if I want to use a stock shaft for whatever reason then the .018 in difference will be very noticeable. So, because the collars need to be replaced anyway (I want black phenolic instead of the current ones) then I might as well see if the collar diameters can be fixed.
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First, I didn't really know there was a 'standard' joint size.

Second, both collars are cracked? That is disturbing to say the least. What happened? Why are these cracked?

These things make me really question the quality of the build of your cue. You need to address these with the cuemaker before you do anything. If these are byproducts of the original cuemaker's methods, he needs to address them.

I hope you move forward with a lot of information. I've never had a joint collar or ring on the cues I made break...and I generally used ebony, which is more prone to cracking than any other collar material.

There is something wrong with this cue that needs to be correctly addressed. I can't recommend that you go back to the original maker. Mr. Webb has a great reputation, if he can't do it, go to RAT at Mueller's or another of our esteemed members here.

Good luck.
 
ElCorazonFrio said:
First, I didn't really know there was a 'standard' joint size.

Second, both collars are cracked? That is disturbing to say the least. What happened? Why are these cracked?

These things make me really question the quality of the build of your cue. You need to address these with the cuemaker before you do anything. If these are byproducts of the original cuemaker's methods, he needs to address them.

I hope you move forward with a lot of information. I've never had a joint collar or ring on the cues I made break...and I generally used ebony, which is more prone to cracking than any other collar material.

There is something wrong with this cue that needs to be correctly addressed. I can't recommend that you go back to the original maker. Mr. Webb has a great reputation, if he can't do it, go to RAT at Mueller's or another of our esteemed members here.

Good luck.
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My suspicion is the screw is too short inside the butt .
Short joint screws that have no bottom threads are good for one thing; joint protectors.
5-minute epoxies belong in dentures. Not cues.
 
JoeyInCali said:
My suspicion is the screw is too short inside the butt .
Short joint screws that have no bottom threads are good for one thing; joint protectors.
5-minute epoxies belong in dentures. Not cues.
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If you are saying that the depth of the screw multiplied by the surface area of the epoxy multiplied by the shear strength of the epoxy is less than the forces cause by screwing the cue together, then I agree with you.

There is more at work here, I believe. I use cues that have no epoxy for the screw in the butt. They have stood up to everything for over three years.

Honestly, I expect the owner broke with the cue while it was not fully screwed together.
 
ElCorazonFrio said:
First, I didn't really know there was a 'standard' joint size.

Second, both collars are cracked? That is disturbing to say the least. What happened? Why are these cracked?

These things make me really question the quality of the build of your cue. You need to address these with the cuemaker before you do anything. If these are byproducts of the original cuemaker's methods, he needs to address them.

I hope you move forward with a lot of information. I've never had a joint collar or ring on the cues I made break...and I generally used ebony, which is more prone to cracking than any other collar material.

There is something wrong with this cue that needs to be correctly addressed. I can't recommend that you go back to the original maker. Mr. Webb has a great reputation, if he can't do it, go to RAT at Mueller's or another of our esteemed members here.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I can not take any work for a long time.
 
ElCorazonFrio said:
If you are saying that the depth of the screw multiplied by the surface area of the epoxy multiplied by the shear strength of the epoxy is less than the forces cause by screwing the cue together, then I agree with you.

There is more at work here, I believe. I use cues that have no epoxy for the screw in the butt. They have stood up to everything for over three years.

Honestly, I expect the owner broke with the cue while it was not fully screwed together.
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Well, this one was a floater. The wood was not tapped.
Epoxy's shear strength is overrated on round metal objects w/out mechanical bond.
My tires' lug-nuts are not epoxied but I feel safe.
 
There's a good chance that there was threads in the joint once upon a time. The act of tightening the cue a number of times and then shooting once the glue had loosened very well may have stripped the threads out. I believe that Florida Joe, on one of his instructional tapes gave that advice that you never needed threads. LOL

The repair would consist of a bore and plug (minimum .500 plug) and then drilled and tapped as has been described by all the mechanics who have responded.

If you feel the need for new deco-rings, then the joint must be removed to install and then a refinish will be required. different builders use different measurements for joints tapers and such. My joints are .843, some are larger and some are smaller.

Dick
 
I can't quote everyone but I'll try to respond to everything I've read so far.

1) When I first got the cue the joint collar on the shaft was already cracked. As for the butt collar, I'm not sure what happened. I never break with this cue, and I don't slam it down ever. Unless somebody touched it while I was away for a second then I can't attest to the butt collar by the cap. The butt collar portion at the pin is fine and not cracked.

2) The pin is 3 1/8 inches long. Flat faced on the butt-insert end, and a bullet-head on the shaft insert end. I was told this (the flat to bullet head) is a standard pin and there are 30 threads from top to bottom in total.

3) I've only had the cue since August 4th and I haven't played extensively with it since that time.

Any other information required?
 
Ah, this might also be of some service.

When I was playing league Friday night, every few shots the "hit" felt different and it was because the hold had loosened between the shaft, thread, and butt. You could feel that the shaft wasn't sitting flush with the butt.

The third time around the pin kept spinning with the shaft, and I put the cue away to use my back-up.

Looking down the bore, there are no traces, not even lines that would indicate it was threaded ever. Although, the very very bottom of the bore might have threads.
 
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