Europe vs USA international experience gap

Celtic

AZB's own 8-ball jihadist
Silver Member
Team Europe 2011
Ralph
1) Derby (USA)
2) World 8-ball Championships (UAE)
3) Masters 10-ball Championship (USA)
4) Pro Player Championship (USA)
5) Phillipine Open (Phillipines)
6) Ultimate 10-ball Championship (USA)
7) US Open 10-ball Championship (USA)
8) China Open (China)
9) World 9-ball Championship (Qatar)
10) World Pool Masters (Phillipines)
11) World Cup of Pool (Phillipines)
12) US Open 9-ball Championships (USA)
13) World 10-ball Championships (Phillipines)

Darren
1) Derby (USA)
2) World 8-ball Championships (UAE)
3) Masters 10-ball Championship (USA)
4) Pro Player Championship (USA)
5) Phillipine Open (Phillipines)
6) Ultimate 10-ball Championship (USA)
7) US Open 10-ball Championship (USA)
8) China Open (China)
9) World 9-ball Championship (Qatar)
10) World Pool Masters (Phillipines)
11) World Cup of Pool (Phillipines)
12) US Open 9-ball Championships (USA)
13) Beijing Open (China)
14) Challenge of Champions (USA)
15) World 10-ball Championships (Phillipines)

Niels
1) Derby (USA)
2) World 8-ball Championships (UAE)
3) Ultimate 10-ball Championships (USA)
4) China Open (China)
5) World 9-ball Championship (Qatar)
6) US Open 9-ball Championships
7) World 10-ball Championships (Phillipines)

Chris
1) Beijing Open (China)
2) World 10-ball Championships (Phillipines)
3) China Open (China)
4) World 9-ball Championships (Qatar)
5) World Pool Masters (Phillipines)
6) World Cup of Pool (Phillipines)
7) US Open 9-ball Championships

Nick
1) World 8-ball Championships (UAE)
2) Beijing Open (China)
3) World 10-ball Championships (Phillipines)
4) World 9-ball Championships (Qatar)

Team USA 2011
Shane
1) World 8-ball Championships (UAE)
2) World 10-ball Championships (Phillipines)
3) World 9-ball Championships (Qatar)
4) China Open (China)
5) Guiness World Series of Pool (Indonesia)
6) World Pool Masters (Phillipines)

Johnny
1) World 10-ball Championships (Phillipines)
2) China Open (China)
3) Guiness World Series of Pool (Indonesia)

Rodney
1) World 8-ball Championships

Mike
1) World Cup of Pool

Shawn
None

(This was taken largely from the AZB money list, I cannot tell who played in events but failed to cash)

That there is a BIG difference in the two teams. Players from Europe are traveling the world and playing in ALOT more major events against world class fields that include the best players on the planet including those from the Phillipines and Taiwan. The China Open, the Beijing Open, the World Championship events, those are the events that test the players and harden the pressure game and give players confidence.

The USA has 2 players with hardly any international experience, who rarely leave the USA to compete in an event and thus who rarely see the fields that include the top players from Asia and Europe (and Shane) all converging to do battle. Players who don't play at that level, as a true touring professional player have no hope of competing with players who are constantly traveling the world to play in the highest calibre tournaments with the highest quality fields possible. Team Europe is battle hardened because of what they do, Team USA has one player who actually commits himself to the game and travels to play the world class events.

I mean, Nick Van Den Berg played more events in Asia and the Middle East then Johnny Archer did this year, and Nick was the LEAST traveled player on Team Europe this year.

Players in the USA simply have not grown with the game and become what is today a true "professional pool player". A true pro these days needs to travel the world and play in the world class events, and the only person in the USA who does that today is Shane, and go figure he is the ONLY player on Team USA who is actually an even bet against any man on Team Europe. Johnny, Rodney, Mike, and Shawn certainly have the talent to be at that level, but they simply lack the seasoning and the recent world class experience that gives you that edge.
 
Gotta agree with you Celtic. Domestic tournaments are not providing the level of competition U.S. players need to play at an international level. The best players and events are now in Asia and to some extent in Europe. Top players here have to compete more overseas. Of course that's expensive and time-consuming and probably a big reason why our guys don't go overseas as much as is probably necessary. And pool has pauper's purses in this country so getting the bucks together for top players most probably depends on sponsors willingness to pony up travel and appearance expenses. Sponsors aren't easy to come by and they are pretty tight with the bucks even with good players. So we're basically screwed for the foreseeable future unless something drastic changes.
 
celtic,

i agree with you, except for including archer in there. i would put archer in with shane. imo ja can compete with anyone on the euro team.
 
celtic,

i agree with you, except for including archer in there. i would put archer in with shane. imo ja can compete with anyone on the euro team.

He has experience of the past, but he is not currently playing all of the events he should to keep in peak form and that hurts his ability to bring it when it counts compared to a guy who plays twice as many world class events as he does. You need to STAY battle hardened in pool, you cannot start only playing the game part time and miss half of the major events and expect to be right there with a guy like Ralph Souquet when Ralph is putting twice as much effort into the game then you.
 
great post man, US gotta do something pretty quickly if they wanna be back in the game, right now I'm sure I can risk to say that they are not
 
Team Europe 2011
Ralph
1) Derby (USA)
2) World 8-ball Championships (UAE)
3) Masters 10-ball Championship (USA)
4) Pro Player Championship (USA)
5) Phillipine Open (Phillipines)
6) Ultimate 10-ball Championship (USA)
7) US Open 10-ball Championship (USA)
8) China Open (China)
9) World 9-ball Championship (Qatar)
10) World Pool Masters (Phillipines)
11) World Cup of Pool (Phillipines)
12) US Open 9-ball Championships (USA)
13) World 10-ball Championships (Phillipines)

Darren
1) Derby (USA)
2) World 8-ball Championships (UAE)
3) Masters 10-ball Championship (USA)
4) Pro Player Championship (USA)
5) Phillipine Open (Phillipines)
6) Ultimate 10-ball Championship (USA)
7) US Open 10-ball Championship (USA)
8) China Open (China)
9) World 9-ball Championship (Qatar)
10) World Pool Masters (Phillipines)
11) World Cup of Pool (Phillipines)
12) US Open 9-ball Championships (USA)
13) Beijing Open (China)
14) Challenge of Champions (USA)
15) World 10-ball Championships (Phillipines)

Niels
1) Derby (USA)
2) World 8-ball Championships (UAE)
3) Ultimate 10-ball Championships (USA)
4) China Open (China)
5) World 9-ball Championship (Qatar)
6) US Open 9-ball Championships
7) World 10-ball Championships (Phillipines)

Chris
1) Beijing Open (China)
2) World 10-ball Championships (Phillipines)
3) China Open (China)
4) World 9-ball Championships (Qatar)
5) World Pool Masters (Phillipines)
6) World Cup of Pool (Phillipines)
7) US Open 9-ball Championships

Nick
1) World 8-ball Championships (UAE)
2) Beijing Open (China)
3) World 10-ball Championships (Phillipines)
4) World 9-ball Championships (Qatar)

Team USA 2011
Shane
1) World 8-ball Championships (UAE)
2) World 10-ball Championships (Phillipines)
3) World 9-ball Championships (Qatar)
4) China Open (China)
5) Guiness World Series of Pool (Indonesia)
6) World Pool Masters (Phillipines)

Johnny
1) World 10-ball Championships (Phillipines)
2) China Open (China)
3) Guiness World Series of Pool (Indonesia)

Rodney
1) World 8-ball Championships

Mike
1) World Cup of Pool

Shawn
None

(This was taken largely from the AZB money list, I cannot tell who played in events but failed to cash)

That there is a BIG difference in the two teams. Players from Europe are traveling the world and playing in ALOT more major events against world class fields that include the best players on the planet including those from the Phillipines and Taiwan. The China Open, the Beijing Open, the World Championship events, those are the events that test the players and harden the pressure game and give players confidence.

The USA has 2 players with hardly any international experience, who rarely leave the USA to compete in an event and thus who rarely see the fields that include the top players from Asia and Europe (and Shane) all converging to do battle. Players who don't play at that level, as a true touring professional player have no hope of competing with players who are constantly traveling the world to play in the highest calibre tournaments with the highest quality fields possible. Team Europe is battle hardened because of what they do, Team USA has one player who actually commits himself to the game and travels to play the world class events.

I mean, Nick Van Den Berg played more events in Asia and the Middle East then Johnny Archer did this year, and Nick was the LEAST traveled player on Team Europe this year.

Players in the USA simply have not grown with the game and become what is today a true "professional pool player". A true pro these days needs to travel the world and play in the world class events, and the only person in the USA who does that today is Shane, and go figure he is the ONLY player on Team USA who is actually an even bet against any man on Team Europe. Johnny, Rodney, Mike, and Shawn certainly have the talent to be at that level, but they simply lack the seasoning and the recent world class experience that gives you that edge.




You did a lot of work tallying each players schedule . My question would be how many of those events had shot clocks? , which i think was a big factor in the Mosconi Cup.Think some of those tournies use 45 sec. shot clocks , wasn't the Mosconi a 30 sec. ? Even a fast player like Rodney can rush his shots if he isn't use to a shot clock , and trying to determine when to use his extension. Shawn Putnam is a deliberate player , the clock could throw his game off.

If you aren't use to a clock and then you play an event that has one and only have 1 extension this could play on your mind. Maybe a must before playing in a Mosconi event would be spending time playing against a shot clock to prioritize your thoughts , and to discipline yourself to make quicker decisions.
 
9-ball without a shotclock? Please no...

Good openingpost btw. What does strike me is that the Europeans go to the USA alot. Apparently there is alot in the USA to play as well. So that could be a factor why USAplayers dont travel away that much.

But USAplayers indeed lack Asian tournaments.
 
You did a lot of work tallying each players schedule . My question would be how many of those events had shot clocks? , which i think was a big factor in the Mosconi Cup.Think some of those tournies use 45 sec. shot clocks , wasn't the Mosconi a 30 sec. ? Even a fast player like Rodney can rush his shots if he isn't use to a shot clock , and trying to determine when to use his extension. Shawn Putnam is a deliberate player , the clock could throw his game off.

If you aren't use to a clock and then you play an event that has one and only have 1 extension this could play on your mind. Maybe a must before playing in a Mosconi event would be spending time playing against a shot clock to prioritize your thoughts , and to discipline yourself to make quicker decisions.

If a proffesional poolplayer would excuse himself because of the shot-clock he did something wrong in his structured practice........
This would be the most laughable excuse that could be used!

lg from overseas

Ingo
 
You forget that a lot of the tournaments on US soil are attended by world class players from overseas.

Mike Dechaine ran 8 racks of ten ball in a tournament. He is capable of playing anyone in the world.

When the US Teams were defeating the European teams those European players also had plenty of "international" experience whereas most of the US team never traveled outside the USA.

"The balls roll funny for everyone". Right now it's 11 wins for America and 6 wins for Europe.

Maybe the U.S. players will get tired of losing and start practicing more. They certainly don't have to travel more to get better. Flying halfway around the world doesn't make you a better player. Staying sharp and competition-ready isn't something that comes from competing in international events.

Why didn't you list all the tournaments that the Americans played in?

Masters 10-ball Championship (USA)
Pro Player Championship (USA)
Seminole Tour (USA)
Ultimate 10-ball Championship (USA)
US Open 10-ball Championship (USA)
US Open 9-ball Championships (USA)
NorthEast Tour Championships -Turning Stone (USA)
Derby City One Pocket
Derby City Banks
Derby City 9 Ball
Derby City 10 Ball
Derby City 14.1
Derby City Action
TAR Matches
Swanee Nine Ball
Midwest 9 Ball Tour
SouthEast Tour


Did I miss any? All the POINTS events were well attended by foreign players.

The players have plenty of events to compete in. The USA players just flat ass dogged it this year. Nothing to do with lack of experience in my opinion and PLENTY to do with pre-event drama mainly fueled by the incredible hatefest over Charlie Williams. I talked to Johnny at the China Mixed Doubles (oops another international event where he and partner Jeannette Lee finished second) and Johnny said that the forum chatter is a drag sometimes. Ok maybe he should be above it but a lot of us tend to forget that there are HUMAN BEINGS on the other end reading this stuff.

You all ought to consider yourselves LUCKY that you play a sport where the pros are accessible. Try going to a golf event and getting to sit next to Tiger Woods and pick his brain for an hour. Not gonna happen. Try getting a lesson from the world's number one tennis player. Not going to happen.

These people are INACCESSIBLE to the average person without some major effort. But not pool professionals. In pool you can get in touch with the best players, can meet them, play with them, get lessons, whatever. But you all take this for granted and treat them like shit. You talk about them on here like they aren't capable of reading this forum.

I talked with Johnny about the forum and how I thought he needs to view it. Now I am talking to all of you. These people are out there providing ENTERTAINMENT for you. We all know that there is not any REAL money in pool. And I feel NO SYMPATHY for any pro that complains about it. As Grady said once you could be digging ditches for a living. But the fact is that they are out there putting it all on the line FOR YOUR PLEASURE.

So how about giving them some slack and trying just a little bit to treat them as humans deserving of some respect?

They know that they dogged it this time around. But it's not because they aren't good enough so please stop with that nonsense.
 
You forget that a lot of the tournaments on US soil are attended by world class players from overseas.

Mike Dechaine ran 8 racks of ten ball in a tournament. He is capable of playing anyone in the world.

When the US Teams were defeating the European teams those European players also had plenty of "international" experience whereas most of the US team never traveled outside the USA.

"The balls roll funny for everyone". Right now it's 11 wins for America and 6 wins for Europe.

Maybe the U.S. players will get tired of losing and start practicing more. They certainly don't have to travel more to get better. Flying halfway around the world doesn't make you a better player. Staying sharp and competition-ready isn't something that comes from competing in international events.

Why didn't you list all the tournaments that the Americans played in?

Masters 10-ball Championship (USA)
Pro Player Championship (USA)
Seminole Tour (USA)
Ultimate 10-ball Championship (USA)
US Open 10-ball Championship (USA)
US Open 9-ball Championships (USA)
NorthEast Tour Championships -Turning Stone (USA)
Derby City One Pocket
Derby City Banks
Derby City 9 Ball
Derby City 10 Ball
Derby City 14.1
Derby City Action
TAR Matches
Swanee Nine Ball
Midwest 9 Ball Tour
SouthEast Tour


Did I miss any? All the POINTS events were well attended by foreign players.

The players have plenty of events to compete in. The USA players just flat ass dogged it this year. Nothing to do with lack of experience in my opinion and PLENTY to do with pre-event drama mainly fueled by the incredible hatefest over Charlie Williams. I talked to Johnny at the China Mixed Doubles (oops another international event where he and partner Jeannette Lee finished second) and Johnny said that the forum chatter is a drag sometimes. Ok maybe he should be above it but a lot of us tend to forget that there are HUMAN BEINGS on the other end reading this stuff.

You all ought to consider yourselves LUCKY that you play a sport where the pros are accessible. Try going to a golf event and getting to sit next to Tiger Woods and pick his brain for an hour. Not gonna happen. Try getting a lesson from the world's number one tennis player. Not going to happen.

These people are INACCESSIBLE to the average person without some major effort. But not pool professionals. In pool you can get in touch with the best players, can meet them, play with them, get lessons, whatever. But you all take this for granted and treat them like shit. You talk about them on here like they aren't capable of reading this forum.

I talked with Johnny about the forum and how I thought he needs to view it. Now I am talking to all of you. These people are out there providing ENTERTAINMENT for you. We all know that there is not any REAL money in pool. And I feel NO SYMPATHY for any pro that complains about it. As Grady said once you could be digging ditches for a living. But the fact is that they are out there putting it all on the line FOR YOUR PLEASURE.

So how about giving them some slack and trying just a little bit to treat them as humans deserving of some respect?

They know that they dogged it this time around. But it's not because they aren't good enough so please stop with that nonsense.

Of course it's because they aren't good enough. The fall-out from this reminds me of the fall-out we here in England have after every football world cup - there's an element deeply ingrained in our psyche that DEMANDS we win the competition every time, despite the fact we're usually rubbish and deservedly go out long before it gets interesting.

There's a reality gap here, I think.
 
Of course it's because they aren't good enough. The fall-out from this reminds me of the fall-out we here in England have after every football world cup - there's an element deeply ingrained in our psyche that DEMANDS we win the competition every time, despite the fact we're usually rubbish and deservedly go out long before it gets interesting.

There's a reality gap here, I think.

Ok, you're entitled to your opinion. I feel that a few rolls here and there would have changed the match and the resulting discussion would be quite different.

I agree that there is a reality gap. And it's that you interpret things one way and I interpret them another way. As a player I see that the Americans just dogged too many shots. It happens to the best of them.

If you want to put up enough money and bet on the results I will arrange to back the entire 2010 USA Mosconi cup team to compete in every EuroTour event next year (if they are allowed to compete that is). Then we can see who comes through and who doesn't.

You see the results of one event which was plagued by drama on the USA side long before the event started. The players themselves have now made this into their yearly goal above all else to make it onto the Mosconi cup team despite the fact that the freaking criteria for making it onto the team changes from year to year for the Americans.

Let them play again or ten times and the results will be fairly even. I'd bet 100 million dollars on that. All these players are world class players with nothing to fear from any other player in a short race. Sure when it's a long race THEN the quality difference between a Darren Appleton and a Shawn Putnam will come out. That's expected. That's why Formula One races aren't ten laps.

The Mosconi Cup is a short race TV event designed to allow the team which gets the rolls to come out ahead. It's not meant to be a grueling contest where the rolls balance out. It's meant to be short races where one or two rolls per set are the deciding factors. It's meant to apply pressure with as much drama and button-pushing as possible.

It's a cool event nonetheless and the pool is real. The better team did win but not because they are generally better. Just because they were better for these three days.

Now, you can feel free to tell me I am wrong as I am sure you will be quick to do.
 
Ok, you're entitled to your opinion. I feel that a few rolls here and there would have changed the match and the resulting discussion would be quite different.

I agree that there is a reality gap. And it's that you interpret things one way and I interpret them another way. As a player I see that the Americans just dogged too many shots. It happens to the best of them.

If you want to put up enough money and bet on the results I will arrange to back the entire 2010 USA Mosconi cup team to compete in every EuroTour event next year (if they are allowed to compete that is). Then we can see who comes through and who doesn't.

You see the results of one event which was plagued by drama on the USA side long before the event started. The players themselves have now made this into their yearly goal above all else to make it onto the Mosconi cup team despite the fact that the freaking criteria for making it onto the team changes from year to year for the Americans.

Let them play again or ten times and the results will be fairly even. I'd bet 100 million dollars on that. All these players are world class players with nothing to fear from any other player in a short race. Sure when it's a long race THEN the quality difference between a Darren Appleton and a Shawn Putnam will come out. That's expected. That's why Formula One races aren't ten laps.

The Mosconi Cup is a short race TV event designed to allow the team which gets the rolls to come out ahead. It's not meant to be a grueling contest where the rolls balance out. It's meant to be short races where one or two rolls per set are the deciding factors. It's meant to apply pressure with as much drama and button-pushing as possible.

It's a cool event nonetheless and the pool is real. The better team did win but not because they are generally better. Just because they were better for these three days.

Now, you can feel free to tell me I am wrong as I am sure you will be quick to do.

Ok then, you're wrong. But highly, highly entertaining.
 
There's another factor to consider. European players are all heavily coached and primarily tournament-focused. Our players are self-developed and most are gambling/money match focused. I noted that the Europeans all played a very tight, controlled style, moving the cue ball only as much as needed to stay in line, whereas we were all over the place. In short 9 Ball races, tournament warriors tend to have an advantage over grinders...they are used to starting out strong and finishing without the luxury of getting in and out of stroke.

Additionally, the Europeans are susceptable to momentum...we saw that on Day 3, when Appleton lost and Niels was clearly impacted. We had our rotation wrong earlier, seemed to be okay on day three, but I would have put Mike in before Rodney to capitalize on Archer's win and keep the Europeans rocked.
 
I agree the USA players may not be as seasoned in big tournaments on a international level as the other team, but when it is all said and done. Usa played bad. SVB, our best player missed a straight in 7 BAll in a very important stage of a match. Dechaine missed a easy 9-Ball againt Soquet and Appleton. Mike did have a great set against Ralph. I do not beleive this was the best American team we could have fielded, on the other hand, the capable players we did have in the system we use. They Did not play up to there potential.

Also, you have to give credit to Team Europe. They played like they have not had something to eat in a month. Them boys where hungry.
 
Ok, you're entitled to your opinion. I feel that a few rolls here and there would have changed the match and the resulting discussion would be quite different.

I agree that there is a reality gap. And it's that you interpret things one way and I interpret them another way. As a player I see that the Americans just dogged too many shots. It happens to the best of them.

If you want to put up enough money and bet on the results I will arrange to back the entire 2010 USA Mosconi cup team to compete in every EuroTour event next year (if they are allowed to compete that is). Then we can see who comes through and who doesn't.

You see the results of one event which was plagued by drama on the USA side long before the event started. The players themselves have now made this into their yearly goal above all else to make it onto the Mosconi cup team despite the fact that the freaking criteria for making it onto the team changes from year to year for the Americans.

Let them play again or ten times and the results will be fairly even. I'd bet 100 million dollars on that. All these players are world class players with nothing to fear from any other player in a short race. Sure when it's a long race THEN the quality difference between a Darren Appleton and a Shawn Putnam will come out. That's expected. That's why Formula One races aren't ten laps.

The Mosconi Cup is a short race TV event designed to allow the team which gets the rolls to come out ahead. It's not meant to be a grueling contest where the rolls balance out. It's meant to be short races where one or two rolls per set are the deciding factors. It's meant to apply pressure with as much drama and button-pushing as possible.

It's a cool event nonetheless and the pool is real. The better team did win but not because they are generally better. Just because they were better for these three days.

Now, you can feel free to tell me I am wrong as I am sure you will be quick to do.

John,

I am not breaking our truce, because this is not (thankfully) an "aiming system" thread..:)..But I really think you are turning a blind eye to the facts..I feel you are arguing, just for the sake of arguing. (how odd is that ?) :cool:

The unity of the Euro team, has long been a factor, and I don't care if you pick (who you think) would be the five best US player's possible, to compete in any team event, especially the M.C....You will still come up short, (even in a short race format, where I agree, there is more luck involved)...Not saying we CAN'T win, just saying our present culture, Has become such a ME, MINE, NOW, mindset, it is more than a little disgusting... Do you agree with what the fledging Pro Pool Player org. tried to force Berry Behrman into ?... How short sighted were they. Not to mention stupid.
Look at the Pro's in the NFL, NBA, and MBL...Their team loyalty goes to whoever pays the highest $$$...Not saying that is not a fairly common denominator in sports, world wide...But we have taken it to a new level..and it includes (and always has) our Pro pool player's.

No one is more patriotic than I am. But the days are gone when a pro will play his entire career, out of loyalty, or home town spirit. (ie. LeBron James)
He took a 10% raise, from the tens of millions he was already being paid, by his "hometown" franchise that brought him up, at a huge gamble, and nurtured him along for several years.

Pro pool players, in most other countries, are still, (with few exceptions) of the mind set of a Babe Ruth, a Joe DiMaggio, or a Stan Musial...Loyalty to Team and Country, still comes FIRST...They may catch up to OUR current mindset, but it will take quite some time...Sadly, a long time..JMHO.

Looking forward to your (I'm sure lengthy) rebuttal.. ;)

PS..Did it ever occur to you, someone besides yourself, might be right..:shakehead:..:cool:
 
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