Europe vs USA international experience gap

[West Point 1987]

just released my new article on my blog. thought might be interesting
looking forward to your opinions and thoughts!

http://realpooltalk.blogspot.com/2011/12/technique-matters.html

cheers

Marco

Marco:

This is an excellent article. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say, except the whole technique (snooker) part...I realize you're a top class player, so I have to (and do) respect your opinion on that...but I would point out that the majority of German and Dutch players come from either a pool or carom background, East Europeans play variations of pool on snooker tables or pyramid equipment, etc. Plus, I didn't see anything like a snooker stance on any of the European players this year. Seems like the former snooker players (and remember Chris Melling comes from an English 8 Ball background) all adopt (successfully) a classic "pool stance". Neils Feijen's legs are spread almost 4 feet apart! I did see that they all use a much straighter, more controlled stroke (often shorter, too)...there's much to learn watching their game.

I stand by my assessment that the Europeans subject themselves to coaching and incessant practice/drills, much more than any of our players. They're also primarily tournament players, who need to be able to come into a match at a high gear, don't have the luxury of shooting their way into rhythm. Those guys do great in short races. I think long races would tell a different story. But I have to admire the Europeans' approach to this competition. Seems like they take it much more seriously than we do. Shane Van Boening floated an idea during his recent TAR match interview...our Mosconi Cup team should have a non-pool playing coach, a professional coach from a successful professional sport who's expertise is in forming, leading and strategizing a team...not just another pro (read individual) that knows a lot about the game but couldn't lead the team to a buffet table. I'll give Charlie Williams his due...at least he got the U.S. team to come to the matches and root for our players this time. In the past, our players tended to be alone, while the European players always showed up.

 

[david(tx)]

If a proffesional poolplayer would excuse himself because of the shot-clock he did something wrong in his structured practice........
This would be the most laughable excuse that could be used!

lg from overseas

Ingo

I wasn't saying they were making excuses , just making a point that someone like Putnam who i would bet has little experience playing with a shot clock in use .

 

[JB Cases]

John,

I am not breaking our truce, because this is not (thankfully) an "aiming system" thread....But I really think you are turning a blind eye to the facts..I feel you are arguing, just for the sake of arguing. (how odd is that ?)

It's not that. I just bristle at the idea that the Europeans are simply better players. They aren't. To me it's not a matter of skill, which I think is your point as well.

The unity of the Euro team, has long been a factor, and I don't care if you pick (who you think) would be the five best US player's possible, to compete in any team event

I agree.

, especially the M.C....You will still come up short, (even in a short race format, where I agree, there is more luck involved)...Not saying we CAN'T win, just saying our present culture, Has become such a ME, MINE, NOW, mindset, it is more than a little disgusting...

I do not agree about this. I think that the US team was pulling for each other and trying to be a team and they just played badly. US teams have won in the past 11 times to be exact. I just watched Johnny Archer and Jeannette Lee play their hearts out to get second behind Efren and Rubilen. In fact they could have won had they not ran out gas in the finals. But out of all the teams they displayed the most team spirit and cohesiveness I saw.

I don't think that we need to try to overlay our feelings about culture on top of this team's shoulders. America has a long team sport history and we have a long tradition of putting aside differences and individual interests to work for a common cause. So I don't really see that as an issue personal. But again it's just my take on it. No one is all right or all wrong here.

Do you agree with what the fledging Pro Pool Player org. tried to force Berry Behrman into ?... How short sighted were they. Not to mention stupid.

No, but these guys are not businessmen. They live for the moment. Not to belabor the point but Barry also brought some of it on himself with his past issues of paying the players.

Look at the Pro's in the NFL, NBA, and MBL...Their team loyalty goes to whoever pays the highest $$$...Not saying that is not a fairly common denominator in sports, world wide...But we have taken it to a new level..and it includes (and always has) our Pro pool player's.

Sure, I would pretty much say that going after the money is the definition of a professional player. Most of us would not look down on a engineer or teacher who left one place to take a position with better pay somewhere else.

No one is more patriotic than I am. But the days are gone when a pro will play his entire career, out of loyalty, or home town spirit. (ie. LeBron James)
He took a 10% raise, from the tens of millions he was already being paid, by his "hometown" franchise that brought him up, at a huge gamble, and nurtured him along for several years.

I think that America is also defined more by the independent spirit. The idea that each man must make his own way. We have an amazing capacity to come together when the chips are down but by and large we respect the individual's right to choose for himself.

Pro pool players, in most other countries, are still, (with few exceptions) of the mind set of a Babe Ruth, a Joe DiMaggio, or a Stan Musial...Loyalty to Team and Country, still comes FIRST...They may catch up to OUR current mindset, but it will take quite some time...Sadly, a long time..JMHO.

Yeah, I wouldn't quite go that far. Pro players in other countries also tend to follow the money for the most part. I could name names and give you plenty of examples but I don't think that this is the place for it.

Looking forward to your (I'm sure lengthy) rebuttal..

Admit it though, you did want one.

PS..Did it ever occur to you, someone besides yourself, might be right..:shakehead:..

Yes, but then I banished that thought immediately lest I become a wussy not ready to defend my own opinions. ;-)

 

[JB Cases]

I'm not sure JB's even aware other people exist, let alone they might have more valid opinions than him.

Well I know that the opinion of some anonymous troll who is a nobody in my industry doesn't mean anything to me.

I am pretty sure you don't know or hang out with any of the pros on either side of the ocean so I highly doubt that you have any first hand experience with what pro-level pool really is anyway.

The fact that Sean Leinen already dispelled your assertion that snooker stances are what's needed and the fact that you have already been shown to be wrong in other areas of analysis on other subjects leads me to think that you are not only a nobody but you also don't know much.

 

[sjm]

Celtic, you've hit the nail on the head. I've been posting for at least a year that the failure of American's pros to as much as participate in the major overseas events would have major consequences, greatly compromising their chances of succeeding agains the stars of Europe and Asia.

The Europeans play in all the top events worldwide and it has greatly improved their pedigrees. We all understand that reduced participation by American pros is a result of the poor earnings prospects relative to cost that so many of these events present. It is in this respect that I feel sad for the American pros, for they are, Shane excepted, not afforded the opportunity to keep up with the international stars of pool. I'll also give a shout out to Hunter Lombardo, who is doing what he can to build his own pedigree by traveling to major overseas events. I do not accept the argument that American pros have weaker fundamentals than pros of other nations. Their disadvantage is that, except for Shane, they do not get to compete against the world's best as often as the Europeans, who hone their skills by competing on three continents. That's why it's not a fair fight anymore.

American pros can live in denial or grab the bull by the horns and find a way to resume their participation on the world stage to the fullest extent possible. A plea in earnest from American pros for financing of such participation would surely have been received favorably by many of those (like me, for example), who support pool financially, but American pros have chosen to take a course of resistance, doing everything in their power in 2011 to offend the promoters, fans, patrons and sponsors of pro pool in America.

Until we join 'em, we can't expect to beat 'em. Joining 'em means doing what they do to maximize playing pedigree, and that means playing in the major international events.

 

[JB Cases]

Celtic, you've hit the nail on the head. I've been posting for at least a year that the failure of American's pros to as much as participate in the major overseas events would have major consequences, greatly compromising their chances of succeeding agains the stars of Europe and Asia.

The Europeans play in all the top events worldwide and it has greatly improved their pedigrees. We all understand that reduced participation by American pros is a result of the poor earnings prospects relative to cost that so many of these events present. It is in this respect that I feel sad for the American pros, for they are, Shane excepted, not afforded the opportunity to keep up with the international stars of pool. I'll also give a shout out to Hunter Lombardo, who is doing what he can to build his own pedigree by traveling to major overseas events. I do not accept the argument that American pros have weaker fundamentals than pros of other nations. Their disadvantage is that, except for Shane, they do not get to compete against the world's best as often as the Europeans, who hone their skills by competing on three continents. That's why it's not a fair fight anymore.

American pros can live in denial or grab the bull by the horns and find a way to resume their participation on the world stage to the fullest extent possible. A plea in earnest from American pros for financing of such participation would surely have been received favorably by many of those (like me, for example), who support pool financially, but American pros have chosen to take a course of resistance, doing everything in their power in 2011 to offend the promoters, fans, patrons and sponsors of pro pool in America.

Until we join 'em, we can't expect to beat 'em. Joining 'em means doing what they do to maximize playing pedigree, and that means playing in the major international events.

And I have been preaching that the American professionals CAN go to the international events with more work on their part to fund those trips. All professional pool players around the globe have to fade the costs and figure out how to get them paid for. Some have management agreements where they get funded for a percentage of their earnings. Some have agents who work to get them sponsors for a percentage of their money they bring in. Some just work doing lessons and exhibitions to fund their travels.

The American pool player has plenty of opportunity in the land of opportunity.

Darren Appleton, Thorsten Hohmann, and Mika Immonen all live in the USA and still they manage to make all the major international events. They live here and have the same costs to get to those events as any American professional does.

The BCA administers the invites for all the WPA events. The Americans do HAVE guaranteed spots in all these events. All they have to do is plan properly and take them.

 

[sjm]

And I have been preaching that the American professionals CAN go to the international events with more work on their part to fund those trips. All professional pool players around the globe have to fade the costs and figure out how to get them paid for. Some have management agreements where they get funded for a percentage of their earnings. Some have agents who work to get them sponsors for a percentage of their money they bring in. Some just work doing lessons and exhibitions to fund their travels.

The American pool player has plenty of opportunity in the land of opportunity.

Darren Appleton, Thorsten Hohmann, and Mika Immonen all live in the USA and still they manage to make all the major international events. They live here and have the same costs to get to those events as any American professional does.

The BCA administers the invites for all the WPA events. The Americans do HAVE guaranteed spots in all these events. All they have to do is plan properly and take them.

Very nicely put, John. I agree. For some American pros, they need only take the initiative. Of course, Mika and Thorsten, like Shane, are so successful in competition that they can cost justify high travel expenses. The tougher quesiton is "How can those who have not yet arrived as competitors of high pedigree, who cannot fade the costs, get the international experience they need?"

 

[JB Cases]

Very nicely put, John. I agree. For some American pros, they need only take the initiative. Of course, Mika and Thorsten, like Shane, are so successful in competition that they can cost justify high travel expenses. The tougher quesiton is "How can those who have not yet arrived as competitors of high pedigree, who cannot fade the costs, get the international experience they need?"

Plenty of people find ways to put themselves through college and I feel the same about any player who thinks he should be able to compete at the highest level.

It is true that pool in America is a vibrant team sport through the leagues but a solitary "gunfighter-action" endeavor otherwise.

I dearly miss the teams in Germany. I have simply never had a better time in my pool life than the weekends we would all dress up and travel to play another team in a formal setting. What a great way to spend the day.

The thing is though that anyone desiring to be an international professional player has to face the same things all over the world. How to get qualified, how to get there, how to deal with the environment there, fading different rules and conditions, and so on. All this talk of government support is nonsense. Only a VERY few actually receive any monetary support from the government and of those the support isn't much, the rest are on their own.

 

[Slasher]

Marco:

This is an excellent article. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say, except the whole technique (snooker) part...I realize you're a top class player, so I have to (and do) respect your opinion on that...but I would point out that the majority of German and Dutch players come from either a pool or carom background, East Europeans play variations of pool on snooker tables or pyramid equipment, etc. Plus, I didn't see anything like a snooker stance on any of the European players this year. Seems like the former snooker players (and remember Chris Melling comes from an English 8 Ball background) all adopt (successfully) a classic "pool stance". Neils Feijen's legs are spread almost 4 feet apart! I did see that they all use a much straighter, more controlled stroke (often shorter, too)...there's much to learn watching their game.

I stand by my assessment that the Europeans subject themselves to coaching and incessant practice/drills, much more than any of our players. They're also primarily tournament players, who need to be able to come into a match at a high gear, don't have the luxury of shooting their way into rhythm. Those guys do great in short races. I think long races would tell a different story. But I have to admire the Europeans' approach to this competition. Seems like they take it much more seriously than we do. Shane Van Boening floated an idea during his recent TAR match interview...our Mosconi Cup team should have a non-pool playing coach, a professional coach from a successful professional sport who's expertise is in forming, leading and strategizing a team...not just another pro (read individual) that knows a lot about the game but couldn't lead the team to a buffet table. I'll give Charlie Williams his due...at least he got the U.S. team to come to the matches and root for our players this time. In the past, our players tended to be alone, while the European players always showed up.

Chris is a former snooker pro (#114 on this list) http://www.snooker.org/rnk/0405/ranking.asp

Just to add Chris is a good example of what can happen when a snooker pro makes the change to pool and actually has a love for the game and works at learning the nuances, unlike many snooker players that have participated in past Mosconi cups that were there more for the celebrity factor and the fun of it.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

JB, all your talk about rolls is just sour grapes. Rolls make a big difference in short races, on that you're right. But they can go either way...

3 days, 18 matches....they even out fine.


My post in another thread about EU vs US players I believe is the most accurate reasoning behind why EU players are more successful in tournaments. In a nutshell, European players are more serious and dedicated to being pool professionals in the tournament sense, and on a world stage. "Pro" in the American view, mostly attributes to a certain level of skill. The Euro view of a pro encompasses more.

Americans are busy doing other things. European players are pure pool playing professionals. They dedicate themselves more.

 

[JB Cases]

JB, all your talk about rolls is just sour grapes. Rolls make a big difference in short races, on that you're right. But they can go either way...

3 days, 18 matches....they even out fine.


My post in another thread about EU vs US players I believe is the most accurate reasoning behind why EU players are more successful in tournaments. In a nutshell, European players are more serious and dedicated to being pool professionals in the tournament sense, and on a world stage. "Pro" in the American view, mostly attributes to a certain level of skill. The Euro view of a pro encompasses more.

Americans are busy doing other things. European players are pure pool playing professionals. They dedicate themselves more.

I also said that the American dogged it, which is also a "roll". The reason EU players are more successful in international events is because more of them play in international events. I have no sour grapes and frankly I could care less which "team" wins. I don't put as much emotion into the Mosconi Cup as a lot of people here seem to do.

But what I find fascinating is how you all extrapolate the results into examples of American culture, American work ethic, American values, American ideals, etc......

I wonder what the chatter would have been had these terrible lazy players actually won? Would they then have suddenly vaulted to being examples of American spirit, American heart, American toughness????

It's funny but way back in the early days it was part time US pros going to Europe and kicking the asses of the dedicated professionals back then. People like Mike Gulyassy and Kim Davenport and Reed Pierce were shredding the Euro teams. How was that possible?

In the USA we have people like full time business owner and car salesman Donny Mills getting third in the US Open. Part time player and dirt bike riders like John Schmidt winning it, full time pool room owner Johnny Archer doing great and still winning, full time promoter Allen Hopkins still wins events, Shawn Putnam makes cues and is the house pro at Johnny's room and still plays world class. So by your logic if they ever went full bore into being 100% pool players ONLY then the Mosconi Cup should be a massacre right?

Would have nothing to do with rolls in that case would it? The skill difference would be enormous and they could just leave the trophy here right?

Why can't it simply be that the European team played better for three days and leave it at that? Let them play again, the EXACT same teams, exact same format and it could go the other way.

As a scientist would say the sample is too small to draw a conclusion. You can't reasonably say that it's because the Europeans are more "dedicated" professionals that they won. The matches I watched were all punctuated by mistakes on both sides, rolls on both sides and some spectactular shooting on both sides.

I believe honestly that if you broke it down into a shot for shot accustats style statistics then you will find that the differences weren't all that much to have had it go the other way with the Americans winning the majority of sets. And to me that's ALL it is.

Had the American's won then it woudn't have been because of their superior skills, their superior fight, or teamwork, it would have been because what they needed to happen happened. Just like what needed to happen happened for the Euros. All these guys can flat out play at the highest level. All of them are capable of laying down big packages. All of them can beat each other in any given set, especially a short set.

The differences lie in how they handle the pressure and in that I will concede that playing in MORE events means more seasoning. But at the end of the day it's not because the Euros are "more" professional in my opinion. It's simply that they stayed calm and got the job done and the American's dogged too many shots.

That's the match I watched. Maybe that means more professional to you, to me it just means they had a bad "day", three of them.

 

[TheThaiger]

Well I know that the opinion of some anonymous troll who is a nobody in my industry doesn't mean anything to me.

I am pretty sure you don't know or hang out with any of the pros on either side of the ocean so I highly doubt that you have any first hand experience with what pro-level pool really is anyway.

The fact that Sean Leinen already dispelled your assertion that snooker stances are what's needed and the fact that you have already been shown to be wrong in other areas of analysis on other subjects leads me to think that you are not only a nobody but you also don't know much.

:grin:

And giving!