Ray Schuler actually described one shaft as having a design that pushes the flex point farther forward for less deflection.
European (conical taper) vs Pro Taper (straight taper)
- Thread starter JoeyA
- Start date
Ray Schuler actually described one shaft as having a design that pushes the flex point farther forward for less deflection.
I think I know where your're going with this, but I'm anxious to read about your tests and findings....spill the beans already!k:
LOL. It won't be that big of a deal.
I'm waiting for "kilby" to give me his OK to use his words in the thread. I like the way he described his opinion.
JoeyA
Some conical tapers aren't that critical, imo. In fact, with my glove I don't notice a difference between a feel difference between a straight taper and a conical taper...... Any movement of bridge fingers seem to not cause a problem for me.
The advantage for me, seems to be in.... well, I'll save some of this for the new thread. lol
Pro taper
Owned a lotta good cues...tend to play with a modified carom taper
because of an original pro taper in the shafts.. Pointing them to a 12mm..max 12.5..made them hit stronger with less
deflection.
The biggest beef I have with pro taper (other than weak hit) is that they
tend to warp.I've seen hundreds of shafts bent from where the pro taper
ends.That spot becomes the 'weak link' in the chain.
As to having a smooth stroke with a 'euro' taper..
..the trick is to have a strong bridge with a flexible thumb and fore-finger.
Owned a lotta good cues...tend to play with a modified carom taper
because of an original pro taper in the shafts.. Pointing them to a 12mm..max 12.5..made them hit stronger with less
deflection.
The biggest beef I have with pro taper (other than weak hit) is that they
tend to warp.I've seen hundreds of shafts bent from where the pro taper
ends.That spot becomes the 'weak link' in the chain.
As to having a smooth stroke with a 'euro' taper..
..the trick is to have a strong bridge with a flexible thumb and fore-finger.
I am saying this with Michael Caine's English voice...
Joey, are you going to vouch for my teaching ability far and wide if I open your eyes far and wide on this topic? With a conical taper, snooker players more readily appreciate the taper's affects on each shot because of their open bridges. If a shaft is conically tapered rather than an even pro taper, the center of the cue tip RAISES in position relative to the cloth and you can observe the effects for yourself by experimenting with an open bridge. Now since we use closed bridges quite a bit over here, if the parts of your hand guiding the cue's path are unevenly distributed laterally, then this RAISING effect is translated into LATERAL movement of the cue tip during follow through. Take a rigid guide made in a v-shape and turn the v slightly sideways so that when a conical object passes through it it is pushed more to the side the "v" tips toward. Also, add to that a v-shaped guide that is softer on one side than the other and this magnifies the effect. Make the conical object (shaft) big enough and eventually the diameter will eventually push the shaft right off the guide onto the cloth. In a game of precision, imagine the ill-effects on aiming at eight feet. There really isn't much more to understand about this. I have never, ever seen anyone else mention this in print or in person, and when I teach someone to bridge I mention this always. Does this knowledge get me comped into a BCA teaching certificate? Anyone?
Joey, are you going to vouch for my teaching ability far and wide if I open your eyes far and wide on this topic? With a conical taper, snooker players more readily appreciate the taper's affects on each shot because of their open bridges. If a shaft is conically tapered rather than an even pro taper, the center of the cue tip RAISES in position relative to the cloth and you can observe the effects for yourself by experimenting with an open bridge. Now since we use closed bridges quite a bit over here, if the parts of your hand guiding the cue's path are unevenly distributed laterally, then this RAISING effect is translated into LATERAL movement of the cue tip during follow through. Take a rigid guide made in a v-shape and turn the v slightly sideways so that when a conical object passes through it it is pushed more to the side the "v" tips toward. Also, add to that a v-shaped guide that is softer on one side than the other and this magnifies the effect. Make the conical object (shaft) big enough and eventually the diameter will eventually push the shaft right off the guide onto the cloth. In a game of precision, imagine the ill-effects on aiming at eight feet. There really isn't much more to understand about this. I have never, ever seen anyone else mention this in print or in person, and when I teach someone to bridge I mention this always. Does this knowledge get me comped into a BCA teaching certificate? Anyone?
to what degree
i have heard this theory before and got to thinking. i measured one of my shafts as to where i hold it at the start of the stroke and the finish of the stroke. this shaft was 12.70 and 12.90 mm.
PLEASE someone that can do the math, figure out how far i will miss a 7 foot shot because of the .10 movement in the shaft.
chuck
i have heard this theory before and got to thinking. i measured one of my shafts as to where i hold it at the start of the stroke and the finish of the stroke. this shaft was 12.70 and 12.90 mm.
PLEASE someone that can do the math, figure out how far i will miss a 7 foot shot because of the .10 movement in the shaft.
chuck
Probably a little, but you can still have a pretty long bridge - I do.
Because the euro taper is more difficult to move through a snug bridge you really have two options - hold the cue more loosely or use a glove. Roughly half of top billiard players use a glove, a much higher percentage than pool players.
One question I've always had - we know cues flex (bend) upon striking the ball, but it's been my impression that this flex is happening after the cue ball has left the tip. In other words, it's not like a pole vault bending and springing back to add extra force to the still-attached object. If I read you right, you're saying that the bend in a cue is just wasted energy. Do I have it right?
You seem to be describing what has become known as swerve. I've always read that swerve is caused by a downward motion of the cue - a mini-masse effect. In other words, a perfectly level cue (hard to achieve, sure) when the cue strikes the ball would avoid swerve. Do you agree with that or are you saying there would still be swerve with a level cue?
gpeezy
for sale!
i think a players stroke puts spin on a ball. tips and ferrules have more affect than shafts IMO. taper is more for comfort and do vary in throw.
Tps and ferrules may have more affect than shafts but how does each of the two tapers vary throw?
Thanks,
JoeyA
Hunger Strike,
Could you please elaborate some more about your theory? I want to make sure i understand exactly what you are saying.
Thanks!
JoeyA
Good lord. If you haven't been to Kilby's website you should take a visit. He has some very interesting perspectives about the cue building business and some BEAUTIFUL well designed cues at good prices. His butterfly designs are excellent. My son would like the simple Coral Snake Cue. Really I don't know Kilby from Adam but he has travel cues as well and he knows a bit more about cues than he so briefly elaborated.
Thanks for forcing me to leave a contact message on your website which I'm not too sure if it worked or not.
JoeyA
I'm curious about this as well. I think that is what Kilby is saying.
Kilby previously unbeknownst to me is a cue maker from Oregon and designs and sells cues all over the world. He wouldn't toot his horn so I'm doing it for him.
I may not be able to explain it well enough but a taper is for much, much more than comfort. I don't notice much of a difference with straight taper or conical taper as far as comfort is concerned. With the glove I use, both slide through just fine. Also, over the years I have tried to wean myself mentally from things that may not affect the performance of a cue. Comfort is important for sure but I try to let performance do the talking for me and I will try any cue/shaft/tip to see if it will help me play better.
I'm afraid cues/shafts/tips & yes tapers are much like automobiles for all of us pool players. There's one made just perfect for each of us and no two have to be alike.
JoeyA
the only time a cueball is NOT initially deflected from its intended line is when it is hit exactly at 6 or 12 o'clock. any contact laterally pushes the cueball in the opposite direction, however slight. The degree of centripetal force imparted to the ball determine how quickly it returns to the intended line. To demonstrate rather grossly, put your cuetip against the cueball at 3 o'clock and simply push on the ball -- it goes to the left and doesn't come back on line, deflected but no centripetal force generated. With a good stroke and at normal speed, it MAY return to its intended line if sufficient centripetal force is generated. The flex in the cue shaft is energy absorbed by the cue and released after the ball is away, hence "wasted" energy. Physics, just physics....
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In your opinion, how much does tip hardnes come into play with this? It would seem that a harder tip would transfer more energy, so do you think a harder tip also helps with accuracy?