Excessively Slow Play!!!!!

[Black Cat 5791]

I've thought about this for the past 48 hours and I want to get some other opinions.

On my Monday Night 8 Ball League I played a skill level 6, real nice guy just never had the pleasure of playing him, I'm a skill level 5 by the way.

Now on to the issue, our match took 1 hour & 25 minutes to play 7 games, with a total of 20 innings. For you number crunchers here's what this works out to.

12.14 avg. minutes per game.
2.86 avg. innings per game.
2.03 avg. minutes per shot.

I shot 2 safeties the entire match, now like I said earlier he's a nice guy and I don't feel that he was doing anything on purpose ie ( just to piss me off, or sharking ) it's just his way.

But, as a 6 don't you think these numbers are a little much if 2 2's or 3's were playing eachother sure you might see these number's but not at this level.

Now for the kicker, I never said anything to my opponent. But I did ask politely of his Team Captain if he would ask his player to pick it up a little, just a little. His reply to me was that he wasn't going to ask him anything, that as long as he won he didn't care how long he took. And, that's what really has me going. I'm under the general impression that unless we have a really difficult shot we should try to keep all shots under 45 seconds. So with that I don't feel that I was being or, asking for anything unreasonable.

Let me hear everybody's thought's

Black Cat

 

[Snapshot9]

Seeing ...

how I got the indication that you were not taking anywhere near 2 minutes per shot, his shots must have averaged 3 to 31/2 minutes a shot, and THAT IS TOTALLY UNREASONABLE FOR AN APA6, IMO. A 6 should know what to do within 10 seconds of analyzing a table layout, and no more than 30 seconds after that to execute it.

I would have gone to the league operator. I personally think anyone taking more than 2 minutes on a shot, excluding a time out, should LOSE THE GAME AUTOMATICALLY. Although, not written, most league ops will tell a slow player that taking over 2 minutes to shoot is EXCESSIVE, and that they have to speed up their shooting. (I, in the past, have often reminded opposing teams that time outs are only 2 minutes maximum as some would take 10-15 minutes if you let them).

 

[JAM]

In a tournament setting, which includes league play, they are supposed to operate on a schedule.

I just came home from a tournament in which the finals was scheduled to begin at 8:00 p.m. It was delayed by several hours due to the slow play of some of the competitors.

It wasn't just one of the competitors, but I'd say three or four competitors who happened to be SLOW players. They will sometimes get down on a ball, ready to pull the trigger, and then step back, walk around the table, return to their chair to wipe down their cue, and then do the same ritual two or three times more.

Another contributor to the longness of a tournament is excessive bathroom and/or smoke breaks. Some competitors take three or more breaks during one match. Some competitions tolerate one 5-minute break per player, per match, and only when it is their turn to shoot or break balls.

At the IPT in Vegas, if the total score of the two players did not equal six, then the referee came to the scorecards and gave each player one game added to their score. This was to ensure that all matches of the day were played on schedule: 10:00 a.m., 12:30 p.m., 3:00 p.m., 5:30 p.m., and 8:00 p.m.

Slow play is sometimes necessary due to the layout of the table. There are games in which strategy must be utilized which can produce a lot of back-and-forth safeties. Nick Varner has the patience of a saint, and when he can't make a shot, he'll play you safe as opposed to shooting offensively where all pockets stand by.

I think there should be a middle ground for this slow-play style, but schedules must be adhered to. I am not a fan of shot clocks, but I do like adding a point to each player's score when time is of the essence.

JAM

 

[Barbara]

Are you kidding me? At the SBE2 we had 3 Senior matches go over 3 hours each!! The format was race to 4, best two out of three sets. There is nothing you can do to speed up a player unless it has been announced in advance that a shot clock may be used. And even then you can't gurantee that the match will end any faster because it may cause the players to miss more.

The ProAm had a match that went 6 hours! They went hill-hill in all three sets, which was a race to 8.

Barbara

how I got the indication that you were not taking anywhere near 2 minutes per shot, his shots must have averaged 3 to 31/2 minutes a shot, and THAT IS TOTALLY UNREASONABLE FOR AN APA6, IMO. A 6 should know what to do within 10 seconds of analyzing a table layout, and no more than 30 seconds after that to execute it.

I would have gone to the league operator. I personally think anyone taking more than 2 minutes on a shot, excluding a time out, should LOSE THE GAME AUTOMATICALLY. Although, not written, most league ops will tell a slow player that taking over 2 minutes to shoot is EXCESSIVE, and that they have to speed up their shooting. (I, in the past, have often reminded opposing teams that time outs are only 2 minutes maximum as some would take 10-15 minutes if you let them).

 

[Black Cat 5791]

Here's an update for everyone.

TIME GUIDELINES FOR INDIVIDUAL MATCHES

8-BALL

Games Must Win Match Time Average Game Length
4 - 6 45 minutes 10 minutes
7 - 10 60 minutes 8 minutes

EXAMPLE: If a player with a “games must win” of 5 is matched with a player with a “games must win” of 4, the total of their “games must win” is 9; so their match should last no longer than 60 minutes.

TIME GUIDELINES FOR INDIVIDUAL MATCHES

9-BALL

Match Time 40-60 Minutes

ADDITIONAL TIME GUIDELINES

Each practice period 4 minute time limit
Average shot 20 seconds
Special shooting situation 40 seconds-max

I got these off of the APA National Website

Black Cat

 

[Da Poet]

2.03 avg. minutes per shot.
Black Cat

Obviously this was a slow match, but I can't imagine watching someone line up a shot for two minutes or more at a time. I'd have to start giving the dude $hit at some point. This average must include timeouts and the time in between games. (Any bathroom breaks?)

I would call the league operator. They know how to handle these things without causing a big to do about it. He will likely make a league wide announcement of some type with some guidelines and penalties.

Our APA league has 30 second shot rule in the playoffs complete with stop watches that you could borrow. Nobody used them as far as I could tell. The threat seemed to be enough.

 

[axejunkie]

I'm an APA 6 and that doesn't seem super slow to me. I've had plenty of matches go 7 games that take 1:25. I can be fairly slow in making decisions but don't consider myself a slow player overall.

Much depends on how the layouts were. You said you only played 2 safes and I guess the faster you played the slower your opponent would be.

Gotta take the APA time thing with a grain of salt. I imagine it was written for upper-level play where there's a time limit. Remember this league doesn't allow an open table after the break if one ball is made, so I get the impression they don't want players studying the table for too long.

 

[rhncue]

how I got the indication that you were not taking anywhere near 2 minutes per shot, his shots must have averaged 3 to 31/2 minutes a shot, and THAT IS TOTALLY UNREASONABLE FOR AN APA6, IMO. A 6 should know what to do within 10 seconds of analyzing a table layout, and no more than 30 seconds after that to execute it.

I would have gone to the league operator. I personally think anyone taking more than 2 minutes on a shot, excluding a time out, should LOSE THE GAME AUTOMATICALLY. Although, not written, most league ops will tell a slow player that taking over 2 minutes to shoot is EXCESSIVE, and that they have to speed up their shooting. (I, in the past, have often reminded opposing teams that time outs are only 2 minutes maximum as some would take 10-15 minutes if you let them).

How are you figuiring? If 7 games were played then that is a minimum of 56 shots and that's if they were all break and runs and the opponent never shot any balls at all. I'm sure they weren't all break and runs also because the poster states he played 2 safties. An hour and 25 minutes is 85 minutes which comes out to around 1.5 minutes per shot and not taking into consideration racking the balls and whatever else goes on during a match.
Although this is probably slower play than usual, I don't think it would fall into a catagory where the player would have had to forfeit any games.

Dick

 

[Black Cat 5791]

Well let me put it to you this way, I should be a SL 6 myself if I have an open table I'm running out it's not to much that will stop me unless I just can't get to a ball. I might take 10 seconds on an avg. shot if that.

The guy I was playing would look at the table, and look and look then get down on the shot, stroke then look some more walk around the table and look, then get the perfect position that he wanted then start the whole routine over again. If your getting the position that you wanted the rest of the table doesn't look any different then it did before so what's all the anaylizing for I just don't understand people that shoot that way.

Now I've been in the league for 6 years now and I've come to tolerate alot of things, if you have 2 low level players that don't know the game, or position play, shot selection then hey there you go, you deal with it. But when you get to this level I don't get it, if I walk to the table and I'm not comfortable with the shot that I can make it and get position, I play safe plain and simple, and I'm making this decision while walking to the table mind you because I first saw what I was left while still sitting in my seat. Getting to the table is only the confirmation point.

But, like I said earlier I really got to me after I asked the other Team Captain to ask his guy to pick it up just a little bit. And, he basically told me to off.

I just wish there was something I could do that would do some good across the board so that people don't have to deal with this sort of thing.

On an average night for me, win or loose my matches generally are over in 25 mins. or less. A real battle might go an Hour, 35 - 40 innings. But an Hour and 25 mins. to play 7 games with 20 innings total is ridiculous.

Black Cat

 

[Dhakala]

Here's an update for everyone.

TIME GUIDELINES FOR INDIVIDUAL MATCHES

(snip)

I got these off of the APA National Website

Black Cat

That's the same page that says,

"6. Excessive slow play will not be tolerated."

It's been years since I played APA, but I swear I heard something about a 30-second shot clock.

The only 90-minute match I ever played was early in my APA career, when I faced (as a 4) a SL 2 lady whose idea of sharking was to massage my shoulders in between innings. I sure as Hell wasn't going to curtail THAT!

 

[Andrew Manning]

I'm an APA 6 and that doesn't seem super slow to me. I've had plenty of matches go 7 games that take 1:25. I can be fairly slow in making decisions but don't consider myself a slow player overall.

Yeah, but the rest of us do Nah, I'm just kidding, we don't see you play often enough to have much opinion on your speed. Just giving you a hard time.

Anyway, the math is wrong in your first post. You've calculated 2.03 minutes per TURN, not per shot. If you averaged almost 3 innings per game, that means 5 to 6 missed shots/safeties per game. Add that to the winner's 8 made shots per game, that's 14 shots. Add to that the loser making some shots each game, let's say 3 on average, that's 17 shots per game. Also, your 12 minutes per game doesn't include the minute spent racking/changing cues/drinking beer/smoking cigarettes between each game. So 11 minutes per game, 17 shots per game, I'm calculating under 40 seconds per shot. Slow, yes; but altogether reasonable.

The other team's captain should have relayed your message to the player, though. That's just common courtesy and sportsmanship.

-Andrew

 

[suckershot]

Well, lately there has been some discussion about slow play. Unfortunately, my league operator says he cannot use stopwatches because of the problems he is sure that would create...people literally sitting there with it, just waiting to say "time!!!" as soon as it's up, maybe right in the middle of the person's shot. He thinks that kind of situation would create more problems than stopwatches will solve. If he's around, and he sees excessive slow play he will ask them to speed it up.

Unfortunately, the LO cannot be around all the time, and all he can really do is ask captains to make sure their players are playing at a reasonable pace. Most people are very reasonable about this, but every once in a while, you'll find the occasional person who takes league way too seriously and will be a jerk about such things.

I don't like slow players either. Nothing irritates me more than the whole looking around, scratching your head, get down to look at the shot, walk around the table, stroke the cue in your hands while just standing there staring, chalking for 30 seconds, sighing, scratching your head again, chalking again, get down to shoot, take practice strokes, get back up, walk around, chalk, etc. Yes, I have played players like this. Unfortunately, there is little we can do except to ask other captains to ask their players to speed it up a little, or ask the LO to say something.

 

[Black Cat 5791]

Yeah, but the rest of us do Nah, I'm just kidding, we don't see you play often enough to have much opinion on your speed. Just giving you a hard time.

Anyway, the math is wrong in your first post. You've calculated 2.03 minutes per TURN, not per shot. If you averaged almost 3 innings per game, that means 5 to 6 missed shots/safeties per game. Add that to the winner's 8 made shots per game, that's 14 shots. Add to that the loser making some shots each game, let's say 3 on average, that's 17 shots per game. Also, your 12 minutes per game doesn't include the minute spent racking/changing cues/drinking beer/smoking cigarettes between each game. So 11 minutes per game, 17 shots per game, I'm calculating under 40 seconds per shot. Slow, yes; but altogether reasonable.

The other team's captain should have relayed your message to the player, though. That's just common courtesy and sportsmanship.

-Andrew

Hey Drew

Everything youv'e said makes perfect sense except that, the two games that I won took 5 innings, the five games that he won were all 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 inning games. Which went something like this he broke didn't make a ball, I took my turn ran 4 or 5 balls and jawed a shot or couldn't get on the next ball, turn over 1 inning that may have taken me all of a minute or two at most. I sit until he goes out or misses or plays safe, then I miss, play safe or can't get to a ball, I sit 2 innings far less than a minute. He finishes and runs out game over 2 1/2 innings. That's where the 12 minutes per game comes in, and he's taking far more than 40 seconds per shot, trust me if that's all he were taking I'd be jumping for joy and not be writing this post.

I've been winning about 80% of my matches the last 8 or 9 months now and in a regular race to 5 with my regular equally matched & better practice partners, and tournament opponents my matches win, or loose are generally over in 25 minutes. The longest may take an hour and that's with us each cutting eachother's throat's with defense.

My biggest complaint other than the Captain was simply that once you get to a certain skill level, you shouldn't have to go through this long drawn out routine, get down over the shot get back up look at the table, look at the shot, look at the table, walk around the table go back to the shot, get down over the ball, get back up chalk your cue, get back down stroke make the shot get perfect position then start that whole routine over again on each and every shot, he was a 6 for crying out loud.

The balls didn't move you'd think he already had the table mapped out as long as he took on the very first shot.

Black Cat.

 

[Cameron Smith]

I don't know what a 6 is, but a person who plays competitive pool should be able to play there shots under 30 seconds each. There is nothing wrong with stopping and thinking out a tough shot or a difficult layout, if you don't then you should. However once you know what to do I can't understand taking more than 2 seconds to line up and shoot.

 

[ShootingArts]

what are you waiting around for?

I have already considered every possible option on the table before the break and I jump from my seat and make my shots in an average of .37685 seconds. I am currently working on my technique getting out of my chair. I believe there is close to another tenth of a second to be found there, especially if my seat from James Bond's car is ruled legal equipment.

Leaves me wondering why in the world they give the pro's thirty seconds to shoot with one or two extensions a game if a shot clock is used at all.

Hu

I don't know what a 6 is, but a person who plays competitive pool should be able to play there shots under 30 seconds each. There is nothing wrong with stopping and thinking out a tough shot or a difficult layout, if you don't then you should. However once you know what to do I can't understand taking more than 2 seconds to line up and shoot.

 

[Black Cat 5791]

I have already considered every possible option on the table before the break and I jump from my seat and make my shots in an average of .37685 seconds. I am currently working on my technique getting out of my chair. I believe there is close to another tenth of a second to be found there, especially if my seat from James Bond's car is ruled legal equipment.

Leaves me wondering why in the world they give the pro's thirty seconds to shoot with one or two extensions a game if a shot clock is used at all.

Hu

Hey Shooter,

I can't help but note the sarcasim, I'm not saying that a person shouldn't take the time to look at the table and so forth. But, at a Skill Level 6 ( 7 being the hightest ) it's just not necessary on every shot to take the full time allowed, not when your making yourshots and getting the position that your shooting for, nothing else has changed except that you took the ball you were shooting at off the table. So what's the remaining time necessary for. I posted the APA National Guidelines in an earlier post, why is it so hard to abide by the rules. I'm not saying don't take the 40 or 45 seconds between each shot if you need them, I'm saying don't take 2 minutes for every shot!!! Why is that so hard to comply with.

Black Cat

 

[ShootingArts]

too much temptation

I really do shoot every .25 to .30 seconds, but that is with my speed shooting pistol.

The times were just getting sillier all of the time and I couldn't resist. Obviously if you are shooting a pattern it is already known and if you don't blow it no rethinking is involved. On the other hand many preshot routines take ten seconds or more.

You also have to average in the shots where you have to decide between one of several rail options, a slight masse, and whether to try to make the ball or leave a better safe instead of trying a two way shot. If you are shooting a shot like that in under a minute you are probably not thinking all of the options through.

When gambling with a very slow player I waited until I set up a short shot dead in on the money ball for one game. I bent over to shoot, stood up, scratched my head, bent over, stood up, scratched my head, bent over and took several careful and painfully slow warm up strokes, paused with my stick to the rear, stood up, scratched my head, stood deep in thought for a minute, scratched my rear, bent over and finally after fourteen more practice strokes I slow rolled the ball in so that it never lost contact with the bevel. I never made an audible comment on his slow play but he did take the hint.

I agree that some folks get ridiculously slow but then again you never know how far ahead they are playing if they still have a run to finish. If every tap in takes several minutes it is annoying. On the other hand, I have seen missed and missed too many sitting ducks myself to be too casual about any shot.

Hu

Hey Shooter,

I can't help but note the sarcasim, I'm not saying that a person shouldn't take the time to look at the table and so forth. But, at a Skill Level 6 ( 7 being the hightest ) it's just not necessary on every shot to take the full time allowed, not when your making yourshots and getting the position that your shooting for, nothing else has changed except that you took the ball you were shooting at off the table. So what's the remaining time necessary for. I posted the APA National Guidelines in an earlier post, why is it so hard to abide by the rules. I'm not saying don't take the 40 or 45 seconds between each shot if you need them, I'm saying don't take 2 minutes for every shot!!! Why is that so hard to comply with.

Black Cat

 

[Eydie Romano]

I have my players pegged. I know who's going to slow up the whole event and it really burns my bisquits, so I always get them out first and put someone watching the match with a stop clock. There have been players who have set the entire tournament back a whole day

 

[Flex]

Here's an update for everyone.

TIME GUIDELINES FOR INDIVIDUAL MATCHES

8-BALL

Games Must Win Match Time Average Game Length
4 - 6 45 minutes 10 minutes
7 - 10 60 minutes 8 minutes

EXAMPLE: If a player with a “games must win” of 5 is matched with a player with a “games must win” of 4, the total of their “games must win” is 9; so their match should last no longer than 60 minutes.

TIME GUIDELINES FOR INDIVIDUAL MATCHES

9-BALL

Match Time 40-60 Minutes

ADDITIONAL TIME GUIDELINES

Each practice period 4 minute time limit
Average shot 20 seconds
Special shooting situation 40 seconds-max

I got these off of the APA National Website

Black Cat

If someone likes the APA's rules, let them play there. I can't stand those rules, and hate the phony games that people play. Just the idea that an excellent defensive shot will or can count against you in determining your handicap is beyond the pale. Also, no jump sticks! Give me a break. The game is kinda like 9 ball lite until you get to the 8 ball, then it's a real game. But scratching when shooting on the 8 and not making the 8 is loss of game??

APAs definitely not for me.

Flex

 

[Flex]

I don't like slow players either. Nothing irritates me more than the whole looking around, scratching your head, get down to look at the shot, walk around the table, stroke the cue in your hands while just standing there staring, chalking for 30 seconds, sighing, scratching your head again, chalking again, get down to shoot, take practice strokes, get back up, walk around, chalk, etc. Yes, I have played players like this. Unfortunately, there is little we can do except to ask other captains to ask their players to speed it up a little, or ask the LO to say something.

Now this is real G2. The kind of intelligence some people would pay dearly for. Knowing an opponent is driven crazy by someone who is meticulous about his game and shotmaking and routine and so on may be the ticket to beating that opponent.

If someone complains about the other's speed at the table, I think gamesmanship is coming into play. At that point, perhaps extending one's time at the table just a tad every once in a while might drive the complainer into one of Pavlov's nervous states, complete with conniption fits. How sweet

Flex